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Dragattude

31 Posts
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Posts: 827
Baroness
Topic starter
(@river)
Noble Member     New Hampshire, United States of America
Joined: 1 year ago

We watch alot of Drag shows. One thing I don't understand is the deliberate bad attitude.  Everyone is a bitch and seemingly angry. I know alot of it is an act but its such a turn off.  I get there are so many different reasons why we all do what we love. but one common denominator I see here is support , understanding and kindness towards each other. The persona they put on seems to be the exact opposite. Even when they appear to be playing nice there is a constant underlying impression of pure evil sometimes.   Is this all an act?  because im not sure they are all such great actors and its extremely convincing.  I would think every male that grew up different as we did would not be able to hide the understandings for peoples differences, and  body shaming. ect...  we end up fast forwarding alot to the performances as we cant stand the bitchy.  some you can tell its in jest like Rue Paul does it in a way thats not offensive but most of the others . wow they just seem like terrible people.. Does anyone have better insight to this. I really want to give them the benefit of the doubt. I guess maybe thats why they add in  the word Queen. 

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Managing Ambassador
(@lizk)
Joined: 5 years ago

Illustrious Member     North County San Diego, California, United States of America
Posts: 3859

@river 

I believe the reason why many drag shows devolve into catty behaviour is more nuanced than the explanations I'm seeing in this thread.

I worked in the entertainment industry for 20+ years. Many of the people that work in that business....whether in front of a camera/mic/audience or behind the scenes....are ambitious, driven, passionate, self-absorbed, and head-strong. Many of them are also high-strung. And there is a fair amount of alcohol and substance abuse. Disagreements easily become arguments. Shouting matches happen. It's a drama-filled work environment. It's one of the reasons I got out.

I also know a thing or two about emotional abuse and substance abuse. Left untreated, they often become debilitating. It's PTSD. Working in that state is very difficult. I don't think the drag performers on these shows are acting out because of untreated violence and abuse.

I really doubt most drag performers believe women are generally bitchy to each other and that's how they should present themselves.

Producers know that drama is a great way to drive viewership and ratings. I'm sure that plays a part in how some queens present themselves.

/LK

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Baroness
(@river)
Joined: 1 year ago

Noble Member     New Hampshire, United States of America
Posts: 827

@emilyalt Thank you for the response.  Im sure the producers feel some drama is a needed part of the  production value.  Im actually not sure how to process it sometimes.  Its so confusing as Feminity to me is the exact opposite.  and its a constant poor portrayal.  I get the abuse factor as well.  I would like to think IRL they are kind to each other and sometimes I see signs of that. but then others whooa scary.. 🙂  Thanks again. Cheers RC

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Posts: 508
Lady
(@kerrismith)
Prominent Member     Belvidere, Illinois, United States of America
Joined: 2 years ago

I wonder if some of them might have been abused when they younger and developed a bad attitude because of it.

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Managing Ambassador
(@lizk)
Joined: 5 years ago

Illustrious Member     North County San Diego, California, United States of America
Posts: 3859

@kerrismith 

Well I suppose some of them may have been abused. I think it's a stretch to say that's the main reason for the bitchy behavior seen on many drag shows. I believed it's more nuanced than that. I'll expand on that in a separate comment.

/LK

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Baroness
(@river)
Joined: 1 year ago

Noble Member     New Hampshire, United States of America
Posts: 827

@kerrismith Thank You for the response.  I agree Im sure this has some part of it at times. Maybe being outwardly obliviously feminine vs whereas I was able to hide my CD tendencies made childhood much more traumatic.  But Ive known of many outwardly obviously LGBTQ people that are the most pleasing people you could meet. seems this combination of things that resulted in Drag Queen performance specifically has some other factors Im sure I dont understand.  And of course its not all of them.  but the majority seems to all be afflicted with similar discust  towards each other. Odd phenomena.  Thanks again. Cheers RC

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Posts: 198
 Lacy
Duchess
(@rholtman96)
Reputable Member     Lincoln city, Oregon, United States of America
Joined: 2 years ago

Maybe they have this impression that that's the way women are to each other or maybe, their just a bunch of  b____es, who knows.

Lacy

 

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Baroness
(@river)
Joined: 1 year ago

Noble Member     New Hampshire, United States of America
Posts: 827

@rholtman96 Thank you for the response.  Its very possible this is their impression of how women behave.  I personally dont know any woman that behave like that outside of TV , Jerry Springer kind of stuff. Just seems to be very common between so many of them to think they all feel that way. I get the impression if you want to be a Drag Performer you need to be a B!@#$. I hope thats not the case. that would be sad. Thanks again. Cheers RC

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Posts: 768
Duchess
(@jennconn)
Noble Member     Florida, United States of America
Joined: 2 years ago

Hi River.  I almost hate to say it, but it is what sells theirTV programs.  How boring would it be to watch if all the people in reality TV programs got along, no one would watch to see what happens.  The thing I hate the most about it is that the more programs are structured that way, the more people think it’s acceptable behavior and we see a lack of civility in our everyday lives.  The reason that we care about each other here is that it’s how this site was presented and that behavior is expected.  Oh how I wish that was more of a reflection on societal mimicry than the bad behavior that we see on reality TV. 

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Lady
(@cdkaylasnow)
Joined: 3 years ago

Reputable Member     Denver, Colorado, United States of America
Posts: 152

@jennconn I've watched a few reality competitions where everybody is really supportive of their competition and it doesn't make it any less interesting. Making It, Baking Impossible, and Is It Cake? come to mind

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Baroness
(@river)
Joined: 1 year ago

Noble Member     New Hampshire, United States of America
Posts: 827

@jennconn Thank You for the response I agree.  its unfortunate as well that the TV producers think everyone wants to see that. and that it may be steering others that are not that way to put on a persona that is contrary to who they are as a person,  just because they think this is how they need to behave.  as well I dislike how the impression of Drag and the lines between performers and just people like many of us is being portrayed this way. I dont agree though that for everyone it would be boring.  I love the show for the comedy and Artistry.  .  The drama is never what brings me back to watch its the Talent. like American Idol and the Voice.  they always have some drama as well . more of the struggle and the challenges they had to get where they are.  So who is the target audience that prefers the impression of drag to be that way. im not sure. but its also why Im glad to have a fast forward button lol.. Thanks again. Cheers RC

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 Lacy
Duchess
(@rholtman96)
Joined: 2 years ago

Reputable Member     Lincoln city, Oregon, United States of America
Posts: 198

@riverWe live  don't really want to live without fast forward. thank goodness we don't have to.

Lacy

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Posts: 1841
Baroness
(@annaredhead)
Famed Member     Cornwall, United Kingdom
Joined: 11 months ago

I assume it sells the programme better. Would people watch it if the entire cast were nice all the time?

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Baroness
(@river)
Joined: 1 year ago

Noble Member     New Hampshire, United States of America
Posts: 827

@annaredhead Thank You for the response.  I agree some may prefer this.  But i dont think the majority.  I watch if for the comedy and talent.  if you go to a drag show somewhere is it the poor attitude that keeps you entertained? Like the Voice its the talent   the process. Everyone does not need to be lovey Dovey But it puts a show with people that have obvious talent in a realm of jersey shore and jerry springer. Im surprised that thats their target audience.  Thanks again Cheers RC

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Posts: 879
Lady
(@mary)
Noble Member     Sydney, New South Wales, Australia
Joined: 4 years ago

Its a dirty little secret that is a common practice within the lgbt scenario. DV is extremely high in both the lesbian and gay environment. And it comes out in these shows.

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Managing Ambassador
(@lizk)
Joined: 5 years ago

Illustrious Member     North County San Diego, California, United States of America
Posts: 3859

@mary 

Posted by: @mary

Its a dirty little secret that is a common practice within the lgbt scenario. DV is extremely high in both the lesbian and gay environment. And it comes out in these shows.

That statement is misinformed and sensational. It also feels biased.

The hundreds of LGBTQ people I know do not commonly experience violence or abuse. Yes, it happens. That much I agree with.

However, any statistic on the instance of domestic violence in the LGBTQ community must be compared to statistics for the general population.

When viewed with that perspective, the following statistics don't indicate an 'extreme' level of violence. Elevated perhaps.

According to the National Coalition Against Domestic Violence (USA):

  • 43.8% of lesbian women and 61.1% of bisexual women have experienced rape, physical violence, and/or stalking by an intimate partner at some point in their lifetime, as opposed to 35% of heterosexual women.
  • 26% of gay men and 37.3% of bisexual men have experienced rape, physical violence, and/or stalking by an intimate partner in their lifetime, in comparison to 29% of heterosexual men.
  • Transgender victims are more likely to experience intimate partner violence in public, compared to those who do not identify as transgender.
  • Bisexual victims are more likely to experience sexual violence, compared to people who do not identify as bisexual.

The Williams Institute of the UCLA School of Law did a review of 42 studies on Intimate Partner Violence (IPV) and Intimate Partner Sexual Abuse (IPSA). Among their findings were the following:

  • According to the CDC’s National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey (NISVS), the prevalence of intimate partner violence among gay and bisexual men and lesbian women is not significantly different from heterosexual men and women, respectively.
  • There is a higher prevalence of intimate partner violence and sexual violence among bisexual women as compared to heterosexual women.
  • Most studies reviewed for this report have found a lifetime prevalence of IPV that is as high as or higher among lesbian and bisexual women, gay and bisexual men, and transgender people than the U.S. general population.

/LK

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Lady
(@mary)
Joined: 4 years ago

Noble Member     Sydney, New South Wales, Australia
Posts: 879

@emilyalt I'm very well versed in the research. I'm highly involved in suicide awareness and prevention. Having run courses and community programs in many community sectors. 

The comment was based on facts. Which your post actually confirmed in regards to DV. Which my comment specifically mentioned and was crafted around. 

Personally having been involved for decades on the front line of suicide prevention and awareness, the catyness of the show mentioned in the OP is fairly representative of what goes on within most drag circles behind the scenes. 

 

 

 

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Baroness
(@river)
Joined: 1 year ago

Noble Member     New Hampshire, United States of America
Posts: 827

@mary Thank you for being a champion for suicide awareness . !! And i prefer the word you used Caty over the one I used.  this is a much better description.  Ill use that going forward.  I would hate to think that all drag performers are cut from the same cloth.  and some you can tell are obviously uncomfortable with the treatment and attitude.  I guess in-line with you experience.  do you feel its fair that it feels like they are exploiting the poor behavior and promoting it by focusing on it.?  There is Caty and playful but there is also downright nasty. which in my experience is not a typical LGBTQ persona. I guess typical is directly related to personal experiences as well. typical for someone that lives in NH im sure is a direct contrast to Typical for someone that lives in NYC. It so bothers me to see them treat the people,  "that understand themselves better than anyone else in the world" , so poorly.  Its hard when I watch and see so many things I have in common with them then the attitude just absolutely rubs me the wrong way. its Very confusing.  Thanks again. Cheers RC 

 
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Baroness
(@river)
Joined: 1 year ago

Noble Member     New Hampshire, United States of America
Posts: 827

@emilyalt Thank You for this. it aligns with my confusions. my experiences with LGBTQ community . no one behaves like this to each other. Its hard to beleive thats the impression someone like Rue Paul wants ? or is ok with ?  I get insult comedy as part of a show but not the whole show.  its an insult to my intelligence that I watch what to me is a talent show. you can add in drama if your want. the process the journey like many reality shows. but dont portray almost every Queen as a bad dis likable person.  Seems very contrary to the movement.  thanks again. Cheers RC

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Posts: 1103
 Lea
Lady
(@lea-jhene)
Noble Member     California, United States of America
Joined: 9 years ago

Reality shows like conflict.... better ratings that way! I don't like the way people get portrayed in those shows.

I did like watching Transcendent because it portrayed more of the women as real people, with real struggles. There was of course one woman portrayed exponentially worse than the rest. Technically the women were trans cabaret performers, so not the same as drag.

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Baroness
(@river)
Joined: 1 year ago

Noble Member     New Hampshire, United States of America
Posts: 827

@lea-jhene Thank you for your response. I agree that many reality shows only have conflict as they have no content or talent.  but I dont think the majority of people that watch shows like AGT or The voice for that reason.  same for many that watch Drag shows. I never heard anyone saying Im going to a drag show to see them fight with each other.  but as others have said maybe thats their reality.  which would be sad. There is so much obvious talent. People that watch talent shows I think are generally not interested in the fighting.  moreso the process the journey etc.. maybe im not the target audience. 🙂   Thanks again RC

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 Lea
Lady
(@lea-jhene)
Joined: 9 years ago

Noble Member     California, United States of America
Posts: 1103

@river You're so right about AGT, The Voice, and other singing and dancing competitions. They are about seeing people put their best out there and there's usually no conflict or bad attitude. I see what you were saying about why isn't Ru Paul's Drag Race like that with no one portrayed as a b---- or always angry.

Year's ago, The Apprentice show (US edition), it felt like the world, TV, was making steps forward when Omarosa was added. Finally, a minority woman competing for a job with all the big boys for a high level corporate exec job. But the show picked on her and made her out to be a b----. It was steps backward, not forward. Of course, it's all entertainment is the excuse to do that. I watched an interview with Omarosa years later where she talked about the show spliced footage, even played scenes in a different order than reality, to make her seem so terrible. That just felt irresponsible to do that to the "outsider" vying to get to the top of a corp world that others like her weren't commonly found in.

I guess it's like that again, just a different group or social class being picked on in Ru Paul's Drag Race. I admit that I watch the show for the small glimpses of seeing a man crossdress and get celebrated for it, and to see the talent it takes to achieve that. I guess maybe I'm looking too much for reality when it's still supposed to be for entertainment. And the social class being picked on this time is one I belong to, sort of, and there's isn't enough other TV about drag queens or crossdressers to counteract that perception being set to people who don't know or understand us.

Maybe we need a crossdressing bachelorette show where the audience is setup to fall in love with a beauty, wanting to root for her, and feeling sadness at how difficult her life is when things don't work out.

 

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Baroness
(@river)
Joined: 1 year ago

Noble Member     New Hampshire, United States of America
Posts: 827

@lea-jhene Nailed It. its irresponsible. To have such a large audience and not use it to promote a positive outlook of the community.  If there were many shows like this I would understand having some that went down that channel but there is really only this one on prime and popular networks. Shame. Thank you . Cheers RC

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Duchess
(@alison-anderson)
Joined: 6 years ago

Noble Member     Middlesex county, New Jersey, United States of America
Posts: 1742

@river You mention that people watching talent shows aren't intereted in fighting. But you never really know.

Back in the 1970's, it was so common for a fight to break out at a hockey game (and the fans always seemed to love it) that Rodney Dangerfield parodied the situation when he said, "I went to a fight and a hockey game broke out."

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Baroness
(@river)
Joined: 1 year ago

Noble Member     New Hampshire, United States of America
Posts: 827

@alison-anderson I watch hockey all the time. and its true people get riled up about fighting, knowing the game as I do, the fighting is actually very strategic and often deliberately planned. Though I  dont really consider Sports in the same realm as Drag race I do understand where its possible to make that comparison.  but I honestly dont think societies impression of hockey players has any negative or stereotypical impact on the hockey community. 🙂 Thank You for your response.  Cheers RC

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Posts: 3446
Hostess
(@ab123)
Illustrious Member     Surrey, United Kingdom
Joined: 5 years ago

The origins of the term Drag were from the theatre when men dressed as women and the skirts dragged across the stage. The addition of Queen was from the sixties when it was associated with 'flamboyantly dressed gay men'.

Of course the word Queen has evolved, used to describe a precocious girl with attitude. It is that part which I feel has given rise to this image of a drag Queen with attitude. In earlier incarnations it seemed in context and quite funny with the act dressed as an exaggerated woman, overdressed, over made up and say things that were on the edge. The caricature has evolved and so has the attitude. All the time the public want it then the performers will go further.

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Baroness
(@river)
Joined: 1 year ago

Noble Member     New Hampshire, United States of America
Posts: 827

@ab123 Thank You for that explanation.  it does answer the correlation between Drag and Drag Queen . And I get the attitude factor as a performance value. which prompted part of my confusion and question that they just Are this way towards each other all the time.  which others have related to be the case in their experience. I always thought the word drag came from Shakespeare where men always played women's parts and in the script would say for instance enters John in Drag for  dressed as girl.   regardless . something that seems like it would and should be so much fun. looks like they themselves make it a miserable profession.  which is very unfortunate as they may be their own worst enemies. but also leaving a bad impression that most men that dress as women are like this.  its sad.. Thanks again. Cheers RC

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Posts: 1209
(@lauren114)
Noble Member     Delaware, United States of America
Joined: 2 years ago

The attitude is probably intended to convey a sense of self confidence albeit at the expense of others.   Definitely not the way that a kind or compassionate person would act, but as we regularly see that doesn't sell much these days and is completely counter to the concept of reality TV.

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Baroness
(@river)
Joined: 1 year ago

Noble Member     New Hampshire, United States of America
Posts: 827

@lauren114 Thank You for the response .  I agree to an extent but for instance  reality Talent shows generally dont portray this kind of Caty behavior . jersey shore. jerry springer . real house wives  sure.. thats what the people that watch these shows want. Im just confused by the impression that people that watch Drag shows,  also want this type of interaction.  Im also surprised that as some have confirmed in their experiences that they really are this way towards each other. which to me is just the production showing actual reality vs pushing a narrative.  But it would seem to me it would be a narrative the community would be against as it portrays people in a negative manner contrary to what the LGBTQ community would approve of. its very confusing to me. Like one step forward 2 steps back. Thanks again. Cheers RC

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Posts: 379
Lady
(@leainvancouver)
Prominent Member     Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Joined: 1 year ago

I make a distinction between trans women and drag queens who are generally gay men camping it up. I have seen several drag shows and I agree that the negativity and cattiness on display is unpleasant to witness. While this kind of behaviour can be found in trans women, it’s rare. To me drag queens embody dark feminine behaviour that reflects the competitive nature of drag queens more than what I experience in mtf trans communities. 

The drama and cattiness of drag queens make for exciting entertainment in some people’s minds, more so than a bunch of trans women getting along, but to me it feels like a parody of women, which I find repugnant and disconcerting. I simply don’t support these kind of shows. 

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Baroness
(@river)
Joined: 1 year ago

Noble Member     New Hampshire, United States of America
Posts: 827

@leainvancouver Thank you for the response.  I feel its ok as a performance factor although I also agree where it could be offensive which is a difficult conflict as I enjoy the Performance and the obvious talent and general creativity.  its also an Art form that I feel is not portrayed as well as it should be. I also get where people naturally use comedy and exaggeration at times for a coping mechanism.   But I agree 100% the General impression and that they dont draw a line between the "ACT" and the actual Personality depicts all people that enjoy this art form in a poor light. even those that just watch it.  That this is what people who watch this want to see is definitely an incorrect statement.  thanks again. Cheers RC

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