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It's biological

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Posts: 1524
Duchess
Topic starter
(@augustvaliant)
Noble Member     Long Island, New York, United States of America
Joined: 6 years ago

Hi everyone!

A friend posted this on social media and I have been sharing it there so now I am sharing it here....   ->

There are three levels of our biological sex: chromosomal, gonadal, and hormonal. At the moment of conception, the male sperm determines our chromosomal sex (by either contributing an X or a Y gene to fertilize the egg, which contains only an X chromosome), resulting in a female (XX) or male (XY). Early in development, the gonads (future ovaries or testes) remain undifferentiated, with both sexes having two sets of precursor “ducts” or basic plumbing that can develop into the necessary organs (Wolfian equals “male” and Mullerian equals “female”). At this early point, all fetal genitalia appear female. Going forward, for males, if development continues normally, at about six weeks after conception, the gonads (testes) begin to develop (gonadal sex) in response to genetic signals. The testes then start to secrete testosterone (hormonal sex), which is transformed by an enzyme into dihydrostestosterone (DHT), which functions to masculinize the sex organs, causing the deterioration of the “female” Mullerian duct system and the proliferation of the masculine precursors (Wolfian ducts), culminating in the masculinization of the external genitals, a process which occurs between nine and twelve weeks in utero. In chromosomal females it is the absence of a cue (since there is no Y chromosome) that signals the development of the Mullerian ducts into what will become the female sex organs and genitalia and cause the deterioration of the masculine Wolfian duct precursors. The brain, on the other hand, is a whole different story. In males it is masculinized in a completely different step during which testosterone is converted into estrogen. This results in the development of a preponderance of places in the brain sensitive to testosterone, and the reason why males tend to “have sex on the brain” more often than females. Who knew that it takes a female hormone to make a male brain! The question becomes: if estrogen is responsible for the masculinization of the male brain, how does it not have a similar effect on the developing female brain? As it turns out, the developing female brain is insulated from the “masculinizing” effects of estrogen by special proteins that are manufactured under the direction of the XX chromosomes. Hence, if there isn’t a Y chromosome driving the process, the brain’s default is to be feminized. But this isn’t as passive a process as it may sound. It is through an active suppression of certain key enzymes that otherwise would kick in and cause the brain to be masculinized that the female brain prevails. And the female brain significantly differs from the male in having way more circuits sensitive to the “tend and befriend” hormone oxytocin. Since the brain and body are “sexed,” as it were, in two separate, independent steps, things might not always unfold as nature intended. During the course of development, biological factors can derail the regularly scheduled “program” and result not in just two “sexes” (i.e., male brain-body and female brain-body) but also other combinations. It is possible to have a male brain/female body or female brain/male body—hence four “sexes” in total. Some cultures actually have accommodated and acknowledge these variations in sex and gender. To complicate matters further, the maleness and femaleness of the brain exists on a continuum—meaning that it is not an all-or-nothing process. Some brains may be more masculinized or feminized than others, since both sexes have both kind of circuits—just in different ratios. And we haven’t even addressed the instances when the genetic, chromosomal sex is other than XX or XY. This information may explain some instances in which a person feels “trapped” in a body that doesn’t match the sex of their “mind,” such as is the case with people who identify as transgender. The variability of how the brain is “sexed” during development may also play a role in the variability of sexual orientation as well. In sum, nature loves diversity, but culture isn’t quite so fond of it.

Nan Wise, PhD, is a cognitive neuroscientist, professor, licensed psychotherapist, certified sex therapist, board-certified clinical hypnotherapist, and certified relationship specialist. Driven to understand how the brain creates moods and behaviors in relation to sex and other aspects of human experience, she returned to academia to pursue a PhD in cognitive neuroscience, and is now a cognitive neuroscience researcher at Rutgers University–Newark.

<-

So is anyone familiar with this already? What do you think of this in general?

Hugs,

Autumn

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19 Replies
8 Replies
Lady
(@sashabennett)
Joined: 1 year ago

Noble Member     Wick, Caithness, United Kingdom
Posts: 803

@augustvaliant Interesting, it makes sense but I had never really considered the mechanics of it other than at the most basic level. One line stands out though.

nature loves diversity, but culture isn’t quite so fond of it.

One can only hope that more people would read things like this & actually take it on board rather than the rhetoric that seems so prominent these days.

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(@midwesterngirl)
Joined: 5 years ago

    Monroe, Wisconsin, United States of America
Posts: 214

@augustvaliant 

Thank you for posting this Autumn. I have been struggling with the question of  sex lately and This explains it very well. I will need to look into some research to support this. I will like to have this as an explanation next time I discuss this with someone,

 

Huggs 

Bree

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Duchess
(@augustvaliant)
Joined: 6 years ago

Noble Member     Long Island, New York, United States of America
Posts: 1524

@midwesterngirl if you find anything good please share it

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(@midwesterngirl)
Joined: 5 years ago

    Monroe, Wisconsin, United States of America
Posts: 214

@augustvaliant

 

 

OK...It's pretty wordy but supports the topic

 

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/jne.12562

 

The establishment of gender identity is a complex phenomenon and the diversity of gender expression argues against a simple or unitary explanation. For this reason, the extent to which it is determined by social vs biological (ie, genes and hormones) factors continues to be debated vigorously. The biological basis of gender identity cannot be modelled in animals and is best studied in people who identify with a gender that is different from the sex of their genitals, in particular transsexual people. Several extensive reviews by Dick Swaab and coworkers elaborate the current evidence for an array of prenatal factors that influence gender identity, including genes and hormones.

 

 

  • 18.Swaab DF. Sexual differentiation of the brain and behavior. Best Prac Res Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2007;21:431–444. [DOI] [PubMed] [Google Scholar]
  • 19.Bao AM, Swaab DF. Sexual differentiation of the human brain: relation to gender identity, The establishment of gender identity is a complex phenomenon and the diversity of gender expression argues against a simple or unitary explanation. For this reason, the extent to which it is determined by social vs biological (ie, genes and hormones) factors continues to be debated vigorously.17 The biological basis of gender identity cannot be modelled in animals and is best studied in people who identify with a gender that is different from the sex of their genitals, in particular transsexual people. Several extensive reviews by Dick Swaab and coworkers elaborate the current evidence for an array of prenatal factors that influence gender identity, including genes and hormones.18–20 orientation and neuropsychiatric disorders. Front Neuroendocrinol. 2011;32:214–226. [DOI] [PubMed] [Google Scholar]
  • 20.Savic I, Garcia-Falgueras A, Swaab DF. Sexual differentiation of the human brain in relation to gender identity and sexual orientation. Prog Brain Res. 2010;186:41–62. [DOI] [PubMed] [Google Scholar]

 

 

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Lady
(@joannajoy)
Joined: 2 months ago

Reputable Member     British Columbia, Canada
Posts: 215

@augustvaliant It’s very interesting Autumn… this certainly would explain masculine girls and feminine boys… I’ve often why male me often is more emotional then other males around me, why I act more motherly and can listen to others with genuine care and concern. It explains why I feel feminine some times and desire to be even more feminine at times… thanks for sharing !! Hugs… jo

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Lady
(@harriette)
Joined: 2 years ago

Illustrious Member     Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 4016

@augustvaliant I think that Dr Nan Wise is a great example of why a CD should search for the right kind of specialist if we ever need a therapist.

If all of that is accurate, and I have no reason to believe that anything is amiss, then I now understand a few things about myself better.

I just wish my wife would read this.

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Lady
(@stephanieann)
Joined: 2 months ago

Honorable Member     Northern California, California, United States of America
Posts: 465

@augustvaliant 

Very very interesting,  and good to know, makes a lot of sense !!!

 

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(@Anonymous 100872)
Joined: 2 weeks ago

Eminent Member
Posts: 33

@augustvaliant Just as I thought...lol....On a serious note I wonder what outside influences can affect the balance between what the chromosome reaction would take place..Is it possible to engineer the sex of a pre-conceived baby by creating an environment to block the sperm donating the male chromosome or tilt the tables during pregnancy to grow a female brain during the early stages of pregnancy. And what does external chemical influences have on the gender development, like all the additives in our supply, exposure to chemicals in our home and environment? So many kids now growing into adults seem to have psychological genders that differ from their biological genders. Perhaps its not all psychological like most people think. It started long ago in soup your parents stirred together on a warm romantic night.

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Posts: 2172
 J J
Lady
(@jjandme)
Famed Member     California, United States of America
Joined: 5 years ago

Yes, I have know this for nearly 50 years. It is not new, but just keeps getting better understood as time goes by. Few things in biology are black and white, and while sex (as in XX/XY) almost is, even there there are anomalies like XXX,or XXY. That, and some animals can change their sex, or don't do sex at all.

Mammals are pretty deeply tied to the XX/XY sexes, but as you point out there is a world of other options once that is determined. There in lays the rub, when does sex differ from gender? Does it change through life or is it fixed? When do we difine a fixed point where it can no longer change, or a time we will accept such a change? Can gender change once, twice or mutiple times? Is this a choice we have or it determined by our biology?

It all depends on how and where we make determinations on sex and gender, and that is where a lot of the fighting is taking place. There is no one answer, because like all of biolgy there is a curve from black to white with some amount of gray inbetween. Mammalian sex is pretty much determined at conception, with a few expetions as noted, but, IMHO, gender is not. That is where hormones and developemental biology come in. There are too many variations to simply say XX is a girl and XY is a boy as Richard Dawkins, (whom I greatly admire, but not on this topic) claims.

As an example, women are not allowed to compete in some events if their testosterone is too high, even if it is naturally high and not do to supplements. But male athletes like Shaq can compete even though they are just such an anomaly, just physical and not hormonal (though Shaq's size probably does go back to developmental hormones). Why is that fair? Silly politicians and presidents think they can write a simple law to control such complex issues, which is just not true. Like most things, wrong opinions is mostly about ingnorance and a lack of information.

The info cited above should be required reading for anybody who wants to express and opinion on such matters. Maybe people would think twice before spouting verbal diarrhea on subjects they know little about. I would venture to say that 99.9% of people giving their opinions, and/writing legislation on these issues have no idea about the information presented above.

 

Sorry for the long winded reply, but I have been complaining about this for nearly 50 years, and it only seems to be getting worse.

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1 Reply
Duchess
(@augustvaliant)
Joined: 6 years ago

Noble Member     Long Island, New York, United States of America
Posts: 1524

@jjandme no need to be sorry for a long reply. Ever. In this case especially since it was on topic and well thought out. I appreciate your thoughts

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Posts: 19
Lady
(@petersmith)
Eminent Member     Birmingham, West Midlands, United Kingdom
Joined: 7 months ago

Three very interesting and very relevant pieces! What immediately went through my mind on reading Autumn's text was that although I quite understand about Oxytocin encouraging the female mind to adopt a "care and befriend" mode, as Autumn rightly tells us, how come that same symapthetic, tolerant response always seems to get so instantly wiped out when a wife is told of, or discovers, her partner's CD interests??   There must be Oxytocin suppressing hormones or even enzymes(?), that come into play, and which swamp the mechanisms discussed here??  There must be something pretty universal of this in the female mind too, given how ubiquitious is this lack of sympathy from so many S.O.'s we see described so often on CDH.   

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4 Replies
Lady
(@harriette)
Joined: 2 years ago

Illustrious Member     Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 4016

@petersmith There also seem to be quite a few wives who "get" crossdressing and fully accept or even embrace it. Maybe that has something to do with the female brain spectrum, as well.

I also wonder if why this better explains a gender survey that I took once which gives the subject's maleness / femaleness percentage in results that total more than 100%. My results, as an example, were 64% female, 49% male. That isn't something that we see every day. 

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Duchess
(@augustvaliant)
Joined: 6 years ago

Noble Member     Long Island, New York, United States of America
Posts: 1524

@harriette I remember taking a gender survey soon after joining CDH. I don't recall the exact numbers but they were very similar to yours. I was quite surprised at the time

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Lady
(@harriette)
Joined: 2 years ago

Illustrious Member     Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 4016

@augustvaliant Not that I am saying that taking a gender test is good or bad, but some CDs don't like the results if they don't confirm their feelings. Some of these tests are not well constructed or researched.

For a, let's say, fun gender test, check out the gender role test at idrlabs. Those keywords will get you there. There is a discussion thread here with dozens of pages of results.

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Duchess
(@augustvaliant)
Joined: 6 years ago

Noble Member     Long Island, New York, United States of America
Posts: 1524

@petersmith I think that many of wives/SOs react badly because they had a very strongly held belief subverted.They are shocked and surprised when their perceived manly man has feminine desires. Notcto mention they feel betrayal. A secret is a lie of omission after all so they many feel they were outright lied to when we confess our true reality. I am sure many of them must wonder what other secrets are being kept. Which of course aligns with many of them asking "are you gay?". I think the care and befriend mode gets blown out of the water by the pain of betrayal that most of them feel. Anger and pain frequently go hard in hand. (At least I am sure of it in my own case). Sometimes it takes years for their pain, and there by anger, to subside to a point where they begin to feel acceptance. I have read many posts and responses here where the wife/SO eventually "comes around". Certainly not always and certainly not always completely. Some blow up the marraige/relationship soon after finding out which is what keepw so many of us in the closet. We place the highest value on our our marraige/relatuonare and are terrified that revealing our truth may destroy it, or perhaps irrevocably weaken it.

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Posts: 3437
Hostess
(@ab123)
Illustrious Member     Surrey, United Kingdom
Joined: 5 years ago

This sort of theory has been mooted for many years and explains the anomaly of having masculine girls and feminine men. Society has decided what is expected and sets the standard which sets the norms. However some societies also accepts that everyone is different in their own way but is okay if they keep within those 'norms'. Differing societies and cultures enforce conditions on what is or isn't acceptable which can ignore any deviation nor accept that there are any.

We all know that nature throws up anomaly's, the above piece has base and substance to explain why we feel the feminine desire which may just be to dress or to be transgender.

I realised in myself that my way of thinking has always been to the feminine side, as others observed. My preferred appearance has always been female too.

 

Thank you for the post which confirms my thoughts.

 

 

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Posts: 1524
Duchess
Topic starter
(@augustvaliant)
Noble Member     Long Island, New York, United States of America
Joined: 6 years ago

When I was a child I was well aware of my thoughts being more like the women and girls that I knew compared to the men and boys. I preferred female/feminine things but hid those feelings and preferences because I felt so afraid of mental and physical punishment that would happen if I didn't tow the line as a boy. By the time I grew up those feelings were hid deep inside.

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Posts: 19
Lady
(@petersmith)
Eminent Member     Birmingham, West Midlands, United Kingdom
Joined: 7 months ago

Dear Autumn; Regarding your comments about wives etc, not immediately being able to accept their husband's CD interests. I have to say I think a lot of the upset and anger that accompanies the discovery is largely down to how their partner presents theirselves. So often the husband makes a right Pig's ear of revealing how things are with him. What I mean is that so often we read descriptions of the wife unexpectedly finding their husband totally dressed and completely changed -so naturally it's a great shock. Let's turn the thing on it's head. Imagine a marriage in which the husband is the only driver but for years the wife has secretely dreamed of learning to drive herself. She often thinks of how wonderful, exciting and liberating it must be to sit behind the wheel and be driving that car. I'm sure you can see the parallel with CD feelings here. One day the husband returns home unexpectedly early to find the wife also arriving home, driving the car herself and accompanied by a qualified driver friend who has been teaching her to drive. A dreadful argumant ensues. How dare she go behind his back and not tell him?  How long has this been going on?? How could she have done such a thing??

She would have done far better, I think, to have snuggled up to her husband one evening and purred softly into his ear about how incredibly useful it would be if she learned to drive as well. By introducing the topic little by little, a tiny bit at a time, she would have eventually won him over and achieved what she wanted,  -and all without any upsets or arguments.  

It's the same with CD. With me it started in a very small way by my happening to say to my wife one day about how I was always disappointed with standard male underwear because I found the soft cotton material of the legs of the garments tending to roll up and start forming something approaching a tourniquet.  I went on to say how my cycling shorts were always much more comfortable because they were smooth and tight and so stayed were they had been put.  It was just a one-off comment that I made, not expecting it to lead to anything, but much to my surprise and pleasure my wife's immediate reply was instead of putting up with that discomfort, why didn't I use some of her pants instead?  They would be far more comfy.  We went on together from there which was wonderful of course, but my point here is that I think people would do far better to just introduce the matter little by little and when the time feels right.

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Posts: 173
Lady
(@butteryeffect)
Reputable Member     Preston, Lancashire, United Kingdom
Joined: 2 years ago

I am left wondering...

It seems to me that evolution, biology, chemistry and other physical influences do not dictate how we style our appearance; e.g. styled hair, make up, pretty finger nails, high heels or clothing styles. Most women that I know do not bother with most of that, most of the time. I'm sure they went through normal in-utero development and normal female socialisation (for where I live) and the outcome after 3 or 4 decades on the planet is that they probably wear jeans and jumper with little or no make up.

On the other hand most of "us" want, cute, pretty, very feminine styles. I guess there could well be people who have been through the alternative brain/body sex differentiation route who are not so concerned with their outward styling and hence may be happy in jeans and a jumper of any gender and hence do not end up on sites like this.

So whilst the science you describe is a piece of the puzzle I think that there is still more to understand.

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