Passing: is it worth it and proper?

Hi Edie - good topic.  As for me, at 6 feet tall barefoot I'm not sure I could pass - ever.  But my joy in crossdressing is in imitating beautiful women.  I adore them.  I find trying to be like them as much as possible to be incredibly fun.  And that involved doing all I can to really look and act and imitate them in all the ways I can.  So yes, passing is, by default, a goal.  Whether I can ever pull it off - debatable.  But I love trying!

Mikey

Passing and wanting to pass as a lady; I hate this. Everyone thinks that they must be “passable” to be a great crossdresser. The real answer is that you don’t have to do any of that. Just be the best woman you can be, and own what you have! Do you think all these non-super model girls running around here are 100% perfect? No! None of them are! And thats okay but they all own their bodies. You must be yourself first!

Kisses, Samantha Roarke

Hi Edie;

While it's a good topic, I think this statement and scenario smacks too much of victim blaming.    What is wrong with passing (if you can manage it), and why are you then responsible for the obviously "not so good" guy's response.

Now I can spin stories between the first "Hi" and the "involvement of security" that can paint it bad for either party, but there's no reason that a CD who is expressing her femininity very well to be responsible for every person's reactions.

Sorry, but it's a bit of a trigger for me when someone says something like "You made me feel .... so I had to ...."    We're entitled to our feelings, but we're responsible for everything we do because of them and the sooner we realize this as a person the sooner we can make the most of life.    I'm never responsible for someone's lack of maturity.

Now, if said, CD where to actively attempt to seduce such "good looking guy", then she's just asking for trouble, but just being in a mall is not a deceptive seduction attempt.    If it was, there'd be a lot fewer rapists in jails as the "She was asking for it by being pretty" would be the only defence needed.

I reject any statement that passing implies a deception that requires any sort of censure.   (And not just because I'll never be able to do it without HRT either.)

-Molly

Hi Edie,
Good question; the common misperception is that we are all trying to deceive, and for evil purposes - which is rarely true. I wouldn't presume to speak for all, but when I dress, I'm merely expressing my feminine nature, and I see the wig and makeup as (mainly) a desire to blend in with the crowd and avoid the unwanted attention which a man in a dress is likely to attract.

And yes, I would really like to pass; after all, if I feel like a girl, why would I not also want to look like one and be accepted as such?

Bettylou

Regarding Samantha's comment - Sorry if the passing business upsets you!  I'm not trying to say it ought to be a goal for anyone but me, or that a CD who can pull it off is somehow "better" in some way.  That's like saying a guy is a better guy because he plays poker well, or can drink ten beers before throwing up!  Maybe I misunderstood the question, but I thought it was just a simple ask if passing was important or not to all of us.  Some it will be, some not.  In my case, it's a goal but i don't really sweat over it.  And if I don't achieve it nothing bad will happen, from my  point of view at least.  So I hope that's OK.  Didn't mean to offend.

Mikey

Hi Edie,

Passing is fine but cross dressing allows my feminine self to be let out.  I’m almost 6 foot tall with broad shoulders and muscular legs.  Not a lovely looking lady.  After helping me with wig, make up and bright red nail polish a female friend once said, “there’s a big lady!”  Well, it was true.

Alice

I totally agree with Molly, If you are looking good in a shopping center and some one hits on you to later find out that you are not what he thinks then it is his problem, on the other hand if you went up to this person then you are deceiving him

I would want the rush. For me, easy.

Jessica

This is a good topic, thanks for putting it out there.

Personally I am not dressing as a woman or trying to pass as a woman, I am dressing as me in clothes that make me feel right. To the rest of the world this looks like a man dressing as a woman.  I have been trying to figure out what I am, gender fluid, non-binary, transgender, bi-gender... I finally decided that I hate labels and I am just going to explore what it is that makes me feel right. I don't need to passable to feel right, I don't need to fool anyone that I am a woman, because I am not.

I feel that crossdressing is a way of expressing a part of my personality that is already expressed in other, more acceptable ways. And in order to express something I feel it is necessary to be expressing it to someone. To this end I feel a desire to be out in public dressed.  Now comes the tricky part, society generally sees gender as binary, if people appear to fit this binary then everyone is happy. The moment anyone does not fit in it makes people uneasy. It's human nature to be suspicious of things that don't fit societal norms. Fortunately the "normal" can shift over time and we have seen this with things like the growing acceptance of same sex partnerships.

For me the only reason to try to pass would be to blend in, to look enough like a woman that people can walk past without taking a second look.  If I were somehow more convincing and a guy showed me attention and then got upset I think that would be his problem and I think most folks in the part of the world I live in would back me up.

I think if I were to receive attention from a guy I'd have to assume him to be a chaser and I'd deal with him the same as I have dealt with women that make unwanted advances: polite conversation, then break out the pix of the wife and kids.

If I may murder a bit of a metaphor, "trying to pass" ist becoming a bit  'passe"

Years ago, before whatever acceptance CD's had in this world materialised, yes "passing" was a big deal, cos "the world" had not come as fast with accepting crossdressing as I contend it has today.

There was a time when gay men and women were stigmatized and that's almost accepted in most (civilized) societies these days. Cross dressing to me is heading down the same path!!.

So when we CD's present in public, (in my case a middle aged woman in skirt, blouse and low heels, out shopping), if and when I've been "clocked" as a "man in a dress", most people dont care. Too busy with their own lives and most of their time have their heads in the phones too much to even take more than a fleeting glance...

Even if they do stare for more than a fleeting glance, the "normality" index is up enouh for it not to be a problem...

Happy dressing

Caty

Ha!  Response is to Alice's comment.  I believe we share a similar problem - I make a really big girl!  I keep telling myself I've seen ladies that are six feet tall and very muscular, and that some of them looked really good!  But I was out once and walked into the ladies department at the DSW store, and OMG I was at least a foot taller than every woman there.  I think they would have stared if I'd been a GG.  The level of staring was quite a lot less than I actually thought was warranted!  So yes, leave me my fantasy . . .

Mikey

I have learned to pass fairly well, though there always is the possibility of some kind of a negative reaction. Caty makes a good point, our world is much more accepting than has before, and if one is "spotted" its' usually no big deal. Personally I have been the odd time, but it has never been a problem, women have been very complimentary actually.

For me its' important not just to pass so that I blend in with the other middle aged ladies, but for me to transform myself temporarily into the woman I'd like to be. Rather like those of us that seek full transitioning to satisfy an inner need, if only for a few hours at a time.

Bad things can happen at any time, even in male mode I can get assaulted. Which to answer your question, it is always the fault of the person who makes a decision to assault another. Just like a woman who wears sexy and revealing clothes some will say shes's "asking for it", but she should never be assaulted.

Amy

I don't think that passing is about being deceptive.  It's about doing one's best to look and act like to the woman one feels like on the inside.  In the "being approached by a good looking guy" scenario, it would be deceptive if one were to string the guy along once one knew his intentions.  However, if one quickly lets the guy know the interest is not mutual and moves on, there is no deception and less potential for a bad situation to develop.   Another option would be to play along and see exactly what the guy wants, if that is what one is into.  Of course, that could be very risky.  But, again, as long as one ultimately comes clean, there is no deception.  To be clear, for that last option, I'm not talking about trying to see how long one could fool the guy.  I'm just saying one might want to try get to know the guy rather than saying "I'm really a man." the moment he shows interest.

The word deceiving is interesting.  Isn't the spouse or child abuser who goes out and appears as a decent person deceiving?  The sinner who goes regularly to church on Sunday and acts holier than thou among friends and neighbors ? Such as the politician who acts that way (voting down legislation aimed as easing restrictions on gender related issues) and then is found either cheating on his wife or spending intimate time with members of the same sex?

The word Deceiving is a pejorative word and when used is most often meant as a put down, like somehow the deceiver is less than honest not only in what he/she is doing, but probably in other aspects of life as well. What is the intent of the deception (like cd)? To cheat others? To abuse people? To somehow use being seen as the opposite gender as something that can be transferred into material gain?

I would guess for most crossdressers (not those going through GRS because they are in the transitioning path to be regarded as females, so we can't possibly consider them as trying to deceive anyone, in fact, remaining male looking while transitioning could be considered deception if one wants to apply the currently used definition of deceiving), who want to 'pass', I think  it's because we want to feel to our selves if only for a few moments that we can be the female we at times accept we are.  That's not deception and why would anyone think it is?

I've said this before, there is this huge spectrum of cross-dressing, all the way from maybe like wearing one little piece of clothing to fully dressing, with appliances, make-up, etc. and wanting to pass.  If it's an internal urge, I surely wouldn't call it by the term deception, because who being supposedly deceived will come out with anything less than they had before they crossed paths with cross-dresser.

I am not denying that every cross-dresser is somehow above reproach, but I suspect there are a lot more who are terrified that if they are outed they will be ostracized by family, supposed friends, society. And now we tell them that 'hey, you there, trying to dress as a woman, you're just a lousy deceiver, go away'.  I'm not one of those accusers.

Only if a person is trying to gain something at the expense of others would I ever use the word deception.  And then, even, we certainly don't call it deception when kids (or adults) dress up on Halloween and actually go door to door (or to parties) looking to score something for free.

If someone wants to pass, and it's for the right reasons, I have no problem at all. I suspect I've seen a few cross-dressers who were just a little over the top, during holidays at out of the way restaurants. I suspect I've seen a lot more and never realized it as they were passing really well. I don't consider that deception, I consider that 'well done'. If only I could do it.

As an aside, I was looking up 'cd and deception' and came across a YT video of a crossdresser who looked extremely passable, only his complaint that he couldn't be was he was 6'1" and had muscles. I didn't, but I should have messaged him to look up Jenny Finch.  She  (cis-female) is 6'1" and a former athlete with muscles and is gorgeous. Personally, I think it's more in your own bearing and self-confidence, than in overdoing dressing or make-up, or attachments. But like the Lion, I have no nerve.