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In the course of my CD and Transgender reading (latest research, books and articles) I came across this quote "tolerance is not acceptance or understanding" and it made me think how so many of us are in DADT relationships with our wives or girlfriends. I'm well aware of all the variables in everyone's relationships and that each wife reacts differently to the uncomfortable news that their husbands are crossdressers. While tolerance from our partners is oftentimes the best we can hope for it would be wonderful to experience true acceptance and support. For those of you who have accepting wives I'm curious how you measure your partners actual acceptance, her actual understanding of crossdressing and where you fall on the transgender spectrum. Has she read literature on the subject, does she ask you probing questions in an attempt to better understand and love you. Finally, what do you think it is about your partner that allows her to see past the makeup and breast forms and love you for "you" when so many women just can't bring themselves to even picture their husbands in a dress and as a result are uncomfortable with the whole subject. Would love to hear everyones' thoughts.
Robyn
@robyn1408 Thank you for posting this. I am in a DADT and very much struggling with it. It feels like I am suffocating. I can’t help think that there is no one on earth who knows and accepts me. Not one person. What kind of life is this? When I was young I wished that I wasn’t a CD, but over time I came to accept myself and I love being a cd. I’m not sorry.
@chanel
Hey Chanel
There's nothing to be sorry about.
Like you, I'm not ashamed.
I'm not frightened, and I don't wish that I was someone else. I've learned to love who and what I am. It's what makes me, me.
Since I'm single at the moment, I'm aware that other members could counter that with 'Well ... that's easy for you to say.'
Fair enough 🙂
However, I WAS in a CIS relationship for 15 years, and during that time I put my identity on hold for the sake of the relationship. My ex would NOT have understood, and I 100% knew that telling her would mean the end of the relationship.
It was hell. 'Suffocating' is an excellent word, especially since I'd come to the realisation that I'm trans.
That's why I'm so interested in the responses to this thread. An accepting relationship is the gold standard; what makes such relationships work, and how is acceptance measured?
Ellie x
It's Chanel's word ... but I think that it's a very apt and descriptive one for some of us.
@ellyd22 Elie, I must be the naivest CD in the world with this new wave of gender terminology and pronoun business. Could you or someone please tell me what the acronym CIS stands for? 🙄
That's a valid question Meghan. Cis is short for cisgender, which refers to when a person’s gender identity corresponds to their sex as assigned at birth. Cisgender is the opposite of transgender.
/EA
Hi Meghan
I see that Emily's already replied, but just to clarify 'I was in a cis relationship for 15 years' means that although I'm trans (though I didn't fully realise it at the time) I was in a relationship with a cisgender woman.
This is one of those cases where terminology gets in the way of communication!
An even more confusing term is 'cishet' (cis-heterosexual)
Ellie x
Chanel, whilst we may not know you closely, rest assured that all of the girls here accept you completely for what you are. My wife knows nothing of my girly side, and that's the way it has to stay. We just have to take any little wins we can xx.
@chrisfp99 Agreed, we take whatever wins we can. Believe me, I'm grateful for the "Robyn" time that my girlfriend grants me willingly. But beyond that....... talking to me, counseling me, supporting me.......yeh, not so much.
@chanel Sometimes I feel the same way (suffocating) or more precisely, alone. While it's wonderful that my partner makes a point of visiting family for two or three days on a regular basis with the expressed purpose of granting me "girl time" I still feel alone. When we have discussions about "Robyn" I am always the one who bares my soul. She listens but has very little to offer. Tolerant only.
@robyn1408 Well put Robyn…the feeling of being alone hurts. Seems like we are always alone when properly dressed. It’s amazing with that last look to see how perfect we look, to feel so good about ourselves, and have no one to share it with.
Wow - what a great question!
I'm transfeminine, but single at the moment. Even so, I'm going to follow this thread with huge interest.
It promises to be fascinating. Thank you for posting it 🙂
Hugs
Ellie x
@robyn1408 I can't say that I've ever gone as deep as "measuring acceptance" Our relationship has always been one of, you do you & I'll go along with it (from both of us). I sometimes think that people can spend too much time looking for some deep meaning or reasoning in all aspects of their relationships, but that could just be me.
Mrs B has never questioned the fact that I spend all day at home dressed up & wearing fake boobs, it's just who I am & she has always been of the opinion that I can do pretty much what I want. The first time I got dressed up we both had a good giggle & she made some suggestions for styling the outfit. Her thoughts were, & still are as far as I'm aware (we don't really have deep discussions on what or why) they are just clothes at the end of the day & who cares who they are supposed to be worn by, if that's what you want to wear, go for it.
I'm utterly convinced that allowing your partner to just be themselves & not try to change them to fit your own preconceived ideas is what has kept us together for the past 45 years & we are just as happy & in love as the first time we met. Why does she feel that way? who can say, I'm just super grateful that she does.
Sasha
@sashabennett Well, you're very fortunate to have such a wonderful marriage 😀 . I agree that sometimes we perhaps over analyze every comment, every look we receive from our partners when instead we should just have a "good giggle" and laugh at the absurdity of it all. And yes, at the end of the day it's just clothes.......but of course for so many of us, it's more than just the clothes and it's complicated. That's when I'm sad that my partner and I can't look under the hood so to speak and explore some of the other issues.
@robyn1408 Hi Robyn, you are right, I am & you are also right that for many it is more than just clothes. It really is a shame that your SO can't seem to accept this part of you & I'm sorry that I can't offer sage words of wisdom to solve that dilemma. That's the problem with Mrs B being who she is, I haven't had to deal with rejection issues. All I can do is send you my love & hope you & your partner can find a way to "pop the hood" as it were.
@robyn1408 Robyn, I've been listening to "The Fox and The Phoenix" podcast. There are a number of recent episodes with Savannah and "her" girlfriend Judy. Some of these address the question of acceptance, and one thing I've learned from them is that even acceptance isn't 100% acceptance all the time. There's a balance, there are "You're going out wearing THAT?" moments, there are "Why can't you wear women's flats instead of heels" questions, there are times that they struggle with it even when they accept it.
I would invite anyone looking at this to seek out the podcast and listen to the episodes with Savannah and Judy to get the perspective of an accepting partner of a crossdresser.
@alison-anderson I listened to the episode on heels. Interesting. Thank you for bringing this podcast series to attention of CDH community.
Alice Black
@alison-anderson Thank you so much for the "The Fox and Phoenix" podcast. I am SO very excited to start listening and exploring the website. I've read "Living With Crossdressing" several times so don't know why I haven't found this before. So thank you 😊 And I couldn't agree more, acceptance is sometimes a fluid matter.
@alison-anderson Hi Alison, Many thanks for sharing. I'm a committed podcast listener, usually in my morning four-mile hike. I look forward to hearing "The Fox and The Phoenix" tomorrow morning.
Jamie
@robyn1408 There are numerous ways that my wife she shows her acceptance of me as a cross dresser. The first one, and it’s the weakest example but still valid, is she has stayed with me. Another example is that she had trouble, initially, (the first three months) of seeing me in a bra or buying me one. Suddenly one night she tossed me one of her bras and told me to try it on. She has worn one of my bras when her last comfortable bra broke an underwire.
My wife has on several occasions bought stuff for me, including panties, makeup, nighties, and dresses. We’ve shopped together for those same items and more. She has tried to give me some tips on what to wear and how to apply my makeup.
We’ve had plenty of conversations about my cross dressing and during one of our latest ones, she said that she sees how I treat my stepchildren and if dressing is what I do to be calm and happy, then I can dress whenever I like.
My wife grew up around a lot of gay people, so alternate lifestyles don’t really phase her. There are at least four people she has confided in, and she has done some research but not much.
Quite often I wear nighties or nightgowns to bed, whether we’re just going to sleep or even when intimacy is on our minds. I believe another factor may be that all the men she dated in the past, cheated on her, including her ex husband, who also hit her once. I’m too old for those BS games and too much of a man to EVER hit her. I’m loyal and loving to her and helped her raise her children and I cherish her and make her laugh a lot. Accepting Jill is perhaps a way for her to show her gratitude.
Please feel free to ask me anything else. I’m sorry if this isn’t very well written, but I’m tired and I wanted to answer your questions because they’re very good questions that should be answered.
Jill
@chrisfp99 I agree with Chrissie, Jill. Nothing to be sorry about, it was a very serious heart on your sleeve, inspirational, well thought out post 😘 🤗 🤩
@jillannquinn, I think you bring up a very important point for crossdressing acceptance, one that I think about often. My wife has also comment that Davita is a kinder and more loving person and I feel that too. I think that part of my crossdressing is a life long reaction to toxic masculinity, I have never been comfortable with that aggression. Part of being a "man" , for lack of a better word, is the masculine posturing to fit into that image society has of a real man. We all grow up trying to "fit in", which ends up pushing us in a direction that is not who we really are, which ultimately denies that fact that we are all on a spectrum between "man" and "woman", "masculine" and "Feminine".
The fact that you treat your children well is a testament to the kind person you are.
@daddydavita Thank you so much. I really appreciate that. I’ve said before that I feel that for me, it very refreshing, very cathartic, and very balancing for me to take a break from being my male half and become Jill for a while. Doing so allows me to drop the macho-tough guy attitude and be vulnerable and delicate. I really enjoy those special moments.
Hugs, Jill
I’m sorry if this isn’t very well written
Jill ,,, this was EXCEPTIONALLY well written, and I loved it 🙂
Ellie x
@ellyd22 Really? I thought it was a bit clunky and lacked that smooth flow that I like to read in other’s writing and strive for in my own. But I’m glad you were able to understand what I had to say.
Hugs, Jill
Good writing is as much about the subject matter and the raw emotion as it is about the intricacies of style.
You rocked this.
Ellie x
@jillannquinn Jill, wonderful thoughts, thank you so much. You bring up an interesting point when you mentioned ("I’m loyal and loving to her and helped her raise her children and I cherish her and make her laugh a lot. Accepting Jill is perhaps a way for her to show her gratitude") That could be a subject unto itself and may I add the thought, there are financial considerations as well. Gratitude for providing a nice life, a nice home, maybe frequent travel, whatever the case may be. A loving gratitude would I think be a factor as well. Thanks Jill, you have an awesome wife!
@robyn1408 Thank you Robyn, I couldn’t agree more! To this day, I still can’t believe that I get to wear women’s clothes whenever I want and I have a wife who supports me. Earlier this evening, she went online and found some padded panties for me to wear with my new jeans. I love that she isn’t threatened by me in anyway that I can tell.
Hi, Robyn and thanks for posting this interesting topic.
Tolerance vs acceptance. For me the difference is not to be found in the dictionary definition of the words but in what these words mean , or more importantly, what we take them to mean.
There are degrees of both terms, some things are easier to tolerate than others and some things are easier to accept than others. It depends on one's own "world view". I'll define world view for the purposes of this reply as, the process by which we uniquely interpret and attach meaning to the events and experiences of our life.
I'll give my own example. I would say that my wife accepts my crossdressing...in the privacy of our own home. She shops with me for femme stuff and comments helpfully on my choices. She helps me to wax the bits I can't reach. She has used the words, "it's only clothes, it's still you" to describe how she feels about it. For me, this is not tolerance as in putting up with something she'd rather not, but a level of acceptance she's comfortable with.
I might wish to have her push me more to go out with her en femme but I don't think she'd be comfortable with that and I'm not sure that I want to.
So, I'd say that I enjoy a level of acceptance that we're both comfortable with and I'm happy with, and grateful for, that.
I think some of our concerns with the acceptance of our SO's stem from our own belief that crossdressing is so strange that, even if they do accept it, we'll always have a little doubt. This is because we communicate with not just words but signs and signals rather than telepathy. What do you and others think?
Answers on the back of a twenty pound note, dropped off at an as yet undetermined location 😊
Allie x
If ever I needed a lesson in not writing stuff while enjoying plant-based psycho-activity!
A more sensible answer, now that I'm in more or less command of my faculties, would be to say that my wife accepts rather than tolerates my dressing. Some of the stuff above still applies, (shopping together, her constructive comments on my choices etc.) and she always says, "you don't have to ask" when I say that I'd like to change into a dress and accessories.
But, because we humans communicate both verbally and non-verbally and cannot see inside another's mind, we can only make our best guess as to whether acceptance is genuine or just signalled as such for our benefit.
I'm not 100% sure that's any better an answer but it'll have to do unless I have a blinding flash of inspiration!
Allie x
If ever I needed a lesson in not writing stuff while enjoying plant-based psycho-activity!
I'm interpreting this as 'I wrote it after a good strong cup of tea' 🙂
@alexina OMG, both answers were wonderful, really. Love "whether acceptance is genuine or just signalled as such for our benefit" I guess it comes down to how well we know our partners and the absolute trust we have in their love for us. And even if that acceptance IS just for our benefit then that speaks volumes as to how much they love us and want to be with us forever. Thank you so much for your thoughts. Much to digest.
@alexina It was a good morning then 😉
Ermm, I rather have to admit to your first post making total sense to me ... and I'm properly grounded psych-wise and still less than half way down tonight's (first!) G&T 🙂 Must have been some of the right words in there ...
I'm on my second Cosmopolitan.
Look, it's Saturday, okay?
And I've had a hard day in the garden 🙂
Ha ha! Yes, indeed, Fiona, I confess to being an diligent experimenter and tester of various teas in my quest for enlightenment 🤔
Allie x
@alexina Allie, being on the other side of the pond, the easiest way for me to get a twenty pound note is to write a note on paper, roll it up, and tape it to a twenty pound dumbbell. I'm OK if you just take my answers and leave the dumbbell. 😉
That's fine, Alison, there would be the exchange rate to consider as well and I just can't keep up with high finance 🙄
Allie x
@alexina this is largely my experience too. In addition, my wife has come to a photoshoot and makeup lessons with me.
This is a question that strikes close to home. Too close. I'll describe my experiences by looking at a few places in my life.
I was deep in the closet when I got married in 2000. We'd been together for a few years, and I could tell that she wouldn't be accepting. So I had no intention of telling her my secret. One day 3 years into our marriage, she came home early and caught me dressed. It went badly. Worse than I could've imagined. I became a fixit project. Simply put, it was abuse. We divorced 3 years later.
My ex-wife was worse than unaccepting. She was aggressively transphobic. It took years of therapy to undo the damage. If anyone reading this is married to someone like that, get out! Don't risk your mental health to save a toxic marriage.
A few years after my divorce, I met a wonderful lady that I fell in love with. Neither of us wanted to get married, but we moved in together about a year after we met. We were cruising along for 7 or 8 years doing all the things normal couples do. I hadn't had the desire to dress the whole time we'd been together and actually thought I was 'cured'. But one day dysphoria rushed back into my head worse than it'd ever been. I nearly had a breakdown over the following weeks. That's when my egg cracked, and I came out to my girlfriend. We'd been together 8 years.
I was confident my GF would react calmly, and she did. She asked a few of the usual questions and seemed to accept the answers I gave. But she didn't have much to say. I did most of the talking. In the following weeks she didn't say a thing. Almost as though nothing happened. One day I asked her if she wanted to talk about it. She said no. She didn't want to talk about it and she didn't want to see it. She did say she accepted that I needed to be me, but she wanted no part of it. I was free to dress when she wasn't around. So within a few weeks we were in a DADT. I was okay with that for several years.
By 2019 I'd been in therapy a few years and I needed to start meeting girls. That's why I joined CDH. Within a few months I'd connected with a few that liked to meet in Palm Springs. I asked my GF if she was okay with me going and she said yes. She actually took it a step further and said maybe I should make it a regular thing. All she asked was when I would be gone and to make daily check-ins. She didn't want to hear any details. This was the breakthrough that let me find myself. After a few years it became clear that I was trans and needed to transition. At that point we both knew our relationship wouldn't survive. At least not in the traditional sense. We amicably split almost 2 years ago.
There's still a lot of love between me and my ex-GF. We see each other often. We're best friends. It feels like more. It's complicated. Ironically, she's more interested in my transition now than before. I'd even call her an ally.
I'm single and I'm not lonely. I have more friends than ever before. I'm loved and accepted by the girls that have become my chosen family. Honestly, I've never experienced anything like this in any relationship I've been in. It's a new way of living. I like it a lot. It's one of the things about transition that I never expected.
/EA
@emilyalt Wow, that's an exhausting history with such a wonderful and happy ending. I'm sure you've resonated with many here, myself included. DADT, it's such a tricky balancing act, on the one hand, you have more freedom to dress, maybe in the case of many of us, go out in public. But on the other hand, you can't share any of that with your SO, you can't share the excitement you feel, the clothes you wore, how they made you feel. You describe such a sweet progression between your ex and your crossdressing and finally transition. Nice.
I truly hope no girl can relate to what I went through with my ex-wife. I hate saying this in a public forum, but it bears repeating. Nobody should ever tolerate an abusive spouse. Make no mistake. Any spouse that masks her abuse with 'love and care' is still abusive. Get out. There are outcomes worse than divorce.
Everything I have today is because I made the decision to be happy. I pursued my happiness because it was the only reasonable path to take. All other options left me miserable for the rest of my life.
I'm fortunate that I had the freedom to discover who I am. While my ex-girlfriend wanted nothing to do with my crossdressing and transition, she recognized that she shouldn't stand in my way. I give her a ton of credit for that. And that I think is a good takeaway for many of us. Yes, a DADT is far from ideal. And it's also WAY better than the closet. The mental health benefits of not having to hide are immeasurable. Preserving a good marriage AND having the freedom to be ourselves is priceless. And if you're reading this, you have a few thousand sisters to share your experiences with! If you're in a DADT, there will always be a tomorrow.
/EA
@emilyalt
Nobody should ever tolerate an abusive spouse. Make no mistake. Any spouse that masks her abuse with 'love and care' is still abusive. Get out.
I'm hearing you loud and clear, Emily.
While I was in my last relationship, I DIDN'T make the decision to be happy.
I didn't want to rock the boat, because I was scared that if I fell overboard I'd never make it to shore.
I was wrong; I'm happier now than I've ever been.
It's so difficult to tell though.
Was that fifteen years wasted, or is the case that WITHOUT those fifteen years I wouldn't be who I am now?
Hugs
Ellie x
The years I spent with my ex-wife and the fallout from our divorce could have been better spent. But I don't consider them a waste. The school of hard knocks taught me a lot. My ex-wife is one of the courses I took. Those experiences made me a stronger, better person.
/EA
@emilyalt
Those experiences made me a stronger, better person.
OMG ... in my case as well, didn't they just.
That's it in a nutshell.
However, I'd be hesitant to recommend that ANYONE signs up to 'Ex-wife 101'
ESPECIALLY if you notice in the blurb that it's a 15-year course 🙁
In future I'll DEFINITELY read the small print.
If I had my time over, I'd probably sign up for a pottery course instead 🙂
Big hugs
Ellie x
Robyn, I guess I am one of the lucky girls, I have a very understanding and supportive wife. I am dressed all the time at home and underdressed when I go out. But I do not let dressing stop me from going out and if my wife wants to go out, I change into underdressed drab clothing. I also am very appreciative of my wife’s needs and do everything I can for her - hence, like most good relationships there is give and take and looking out for each others’ needs.
My wife supports me on helping me shop for clothes and shoes…she even goes into shoe shops to buy my size without me. She is critical of my style and points out what looks good. She is very protective of me and watches out for things that could go the wrong way.
Her attitude is that she is sorry that I cannot dress all the time as I would like to, and she feels that society is unfair to crossdressers. But because of discrimination and fear of society in general she does say that I need to be careful that the neighbours (with whom we have a great relationship) should not know - it would be very awkward if they found out, but were not understanding/tolerance as we would see them all the time.
She is also worried how the kids (now adults) would react.
My wife does say that I am a more calm and relaxed person when dressed and that I have more tendency to help around the house…so she sees those benefits.
But she does complaint (in jest) that I have more (women’s) clothes than she does.
When my wife first found out that I dressed (the only thing I told her before was that there was something that she did not know about me), she was worried, concerned, confused and frightened. She had lots of questions, but these, over time have essentially stopped. I answered all her questions calmly, honestly and completely and, I hope, with sympathy, empathy and understanding. She also read quite a lot about the whole phenomenon, but actually found very little really helpful…although not completely…things like crossdressers are not necessarily gay, sexual predators, or emotionally or psychologically unbalanced, helped coming from independent sources (please note I am not grouping gay people with sexual predators as being the same, not al all, but she wanted to know that I was essentially the same person, emotionally, socially, sexually, psychologically and so on). And several humour based articles help…short punchy things like 50 great reasons to be married to a crossdresser. She looked for the literature by herself, it was not feed to her by me.
Also, I introduced Christine to her very slowly and at a pace that she dictated.
I hope some of these rambling thoughts help in some way.
All the best, hugs
Christine
@christineth Oh my, you hit a nerve with me. Discussing how your wife dedicated herself to learning all she could, and from independent sources, educating herself (because she loves you) about crossdressing, the good and the bad. In my case, that would count as a pretty big achievement but oddly enough, it has been front and center in my thinking lately to the point that I'm re-reading some of the classics, like "My Husband Betty" and "Living with Crossdressing" with the intent on asking my partner to please read one. In fact, what a great poll question, "If you wanted the one book you would want your wife to read, what would it be?".
@robyn1408 I live in a zone between tolerance and acceptance. Kinda the same as my beer drinking, doesn't like it, but it has to be under control. An acceptable level of a vice, but a "vice" nonetheless. I am fortunate to have my own space, where I can do what I want. I can go into the main house dressed modestly, which is mostly my preference anyway, but I know if I went in dressed to the nines it would be frowned upon. I find it funny, in that I don't judge her style negatively, and if I did, I wouldn't say anything, and I only say something positive if I have something to say. She has, though, been somewhat negative, but more recently has complimented me on something cute, not pretty yet, but a " that looks cute on you" goes a long way. She has also expressed that, as she has gained a fair amount of weight, a sense of jealousy, kinda, that I can wear things that she can't anymore. I find her lovely, and don't have hang ups about her weight other than I worry about potential health issues. But I am lucky I don't have to hide anything, but I wouldn't call it full acceptance, either. On the opposite side, I don't think I'd be comfortable with a partner that wanted me to go out fully open and pushed it. I have a friend that often pushes me (used to) to go out fully dressed, which is uncomfortable, too.
I think if one finds their partner's preferred clothes, gender identity, or fluidity, too much to bear, they should look inward and ask themselves why that is, and/or if they can accept their partner, and if not why aren't they setting themselves and their partner free, out of love
@siobhann Yes, in the end, if our partners find it all too much and whose CD husband cannot stop, then the kindest thing (as painful as it can be for both of you) is to go your separate ways. Of course there are so many other contributing factors. Ugh.
@robyn1408 I am sorry for the late response to this, but I have been thinking about it. Maybe it's semantics, but I got caught up with " CD that cannot stop". I do think I know what you mean. I have a need to shed and change to what I need to wear. We all here know we shouldn't have to stop, but culturally we are wrong and should stop. I think I could stop, and I do know that would be miserable. As I referred to, CD is considered a vice. I don't see it as a vice, but I do think we are looked at as the same as someone with a harmful addiction, or even as perverts.
I am lucky, my wife does try to understand. Here's a funny thing, I was open about liking to dress when my wife and I met, and I was open a fair bit during our first few years about the need to. But I didn't dress up for years and years, unless I was alone. My wife is as I explained, already. The twist, I have a buddy, we've worked construction together, herded animals, four wheeled, etc, guy stuff, rough banter, and all. He was kinda , um, generous with slurs towards people like me, but he didn't know it was me. He is one of the very few I started being open with, and he has switched 180 in his opinion. Granted, he only knows I paint my toenails and do my hair in pigtails, he knows I'm bi, but married to my wife and not messing around. Hasn't seen me in my nightly garb or my flawed attempts at make up, but doesn't care to. I think he is truly accepting of me. He has no interest, he's a dude, and I have no interest that way for him either, but he has given me a pair of earrings. They aren't expensive, something in the check out lane at the ranch store, a little hammer and a little screw, but he said these might look cute. And then back to harsh banter.
I say all that to say this: My wife took a bit, and is still on the fence about things. I do understand. My bro friend that "no homos" in his sleep, was nearly immediate in making room for me. He is still a crass sob, but that's fine. And, then his grown "daughter" was able to be they/ them, and tell ol boy she was non binary and he loves them all the same. We all grow for people we love. If we can't grow to accept someone for who they are, I will argue, that we don't love them. Maybe didn't or maybe they crossed a line we can't meet them in. If me being me as Siobhann is a place someone can't meet me, well, I am inclined to wonder if they love me, or want me as their friend the way I am, and I wonder what they are uncomfortable with, and why. I understand cultural pressure, and I have patience for the shift to happen. But I don't think it's healthy to keep someone in our lives that won't accept us. And the other way around, too. If my wife started wearing football jerseys and inviting people over for the game and chicken wings, I'd have to step back and assess. I'd most likely accept and cook all the stuff, and then get out of there, but still, just trying to think of a harmless thing I'd have a hard time with. If you made it this far in my ramblings, Thanks
@robyn1408 To me, I think of this as on a scale. Even here in this thread, there are those who get rejected (intolerant) to those who are fully accepted, and everything inbetween. Most of the comments that I have read since finding CDH indicate that the majority of us are in that broad inbetween sector.
@harriette I tend to agree that the majority of us are in a huge crowd of in between, probably most of whom dream all the time about total acceptance from their wives. 🙂
@robyn1408 I look at both tolerance and acceptance differently than embracing. I think there is a difference between a SO that is generally happy to have an occasional or full time girlfriend vs someone that loves you and would do anything to stay together. so they bite their tongue and put on a good face. I told my SO a few years ago. she said its fine and has not said anything that I could deem negative.Personally for me I currently prefer to do it alone. I want to retain my image to her as a man. I get a good amount of my time and never had any complaints except the occasional question like Do you have a black wig? yes why . oh just took some black hair out of the drain. I said honey anytime you find anything female thats not yours its mine as you never have to worry. she absolutely embraces that. But to know if your SO embraces or tolerates I guess you need to ask the question. are you happy Im a CD TG? or would you prefer I was not. honest excitement would be Embracing otherwise its tolerance or acceptance. of course all this is in my personal opinion and not a reflection of anyone elses situation. thanks for the topic. Cheers RC
@robyn1408 my wife doesnt like me crossdressing so its very diffcult to crossdress and my wife is so jelous and selfish
But im waiting on god to give me the right opportunity
@robyn1408 My wife is accepting with limits. In the right mood I can dress up and she will try out makeup on me. Or we will try on things from each others closets. She has bought me breast forms, wigs, lingerie, maid outfits, and lots of clothes. But on the other end of the spectrum she finds my dressing annoying and tells me to take a break from crossdressing until her mental state can take it. I know her triggers and try to avoid them but that took years to learn. She likes me to clean the house and be her maid or wife but doesn't always want to see. It's a delicate balance and sometimes I fall other times I reach the peak but mostly it's the middle ground where I find myself. The biggest thing I have discovered is life isn't a wet dream or fantasy. Don't try to make it one. Talk about how you feel and what you want and if your lucky she will meet you somewhere in the middle.
First, I consider myself transgender. I always wanted to be a girl / woman. I took some paths in my life that pulled me away from this. I am now trying to move back closer. When I told my wife, she went through some emotions. She cried and said she felt like I was dying. After a lot of re-assurance that I will not leave, she said that she wants me to be happy and that she will not leave me because I am transgender. I have taken a few steps to make me feel like a woman. I let my hair grow, pierced my ears and had my eyebrows waxed. I have dressed up and worn makeup around the house. I have went out a few times, just running errands or to my hair dresser. There are some things that stop me from full transition. I have grown children who will not accept me. I have family that will not accept me. The office that I work in will not accept me. I will lose friends. So currently I am a part time girl.
My wife has bought me makeup and some clothes. We share hair care products and often talk about style. I often share my inner feelings with her.
Thanks for the post, Robyn. Wise word from both. For many years I was looking for a woman who would accept me as I am; but it never happened. I had two or three good relationships, but they didn't last long. There are times when I miss one of them. The times I tried to talk frankly about the subject with them, words arose that suggested stopping progress because we were approaching disaster. A saving spoiler perhaps.
I don't know if I didn't know how to choose my SO, if it's because I had to live in an ultra-conservative and sexist society or if I loved more than they loved me. Curiously, it was never me who decided to end a relationship.
I believe that we all deserve someone to love us as we are. I am content to maintain a DADT relationship with the people I love. I have learned, particularly in these recent years, to accept and love myself. To be who I am and feel happy like that.
Gisela
Wives can tolerate things within a marriage such as any hobby their man pursues. They don't understand why he wants to do a particular hobby, nor understand or want any interest in it. Acceptance is not dissimilar in they accept it but again have no interest. It makes their man happy and they let them get on with it and there are even boundaries.
I would say the word is 'Embrace' suggesting full appreciation and even being involved.
Interesting topic Robyn as it has really got me thinking. My SO has known for over 10 years I am gender fluid. She has never seen me dressed and doesn't want to. She doesn't mind that I shave my legs or buff my nails but never brings up the subject of my dressing but will talk to me about it when I bring it up but you can tell she is uncomfortable when we do. I have often dreamed of being able to discuss outfits and makeup ideas with her. I am not in a DADT situation as I do sometimes tell her when I have been out as Olivia and we discuss my and her feelings on me being partly female however I am much more in a situation of tolerance than anything else.
I just reread what I wrote and it made me think that I should also add that despite things being a bit awkward over my dressing both me and my SO are soul mates and so very happy together and are as close as we have ever been now in our third decade together..
Robyn,
My wife left me for reasons other than my cding. She knew about my Kerri side and was neutral about it. My currant life is a mishmash. I have my Kerri side but most of the time I’m a 64 year old dude with bad knees. John Wayne would say I’m a pathetic pantywaist but that is 100 year old thinking. Just surviving in a world with plugged up kitchen sink drains is trauma. I need Janice the plumber to rescue me. Girls rule.
@kerrismith I can relate to what you are saying. I can hammer a nail and screw a screw, but with anything involved I am hopeless.
Alice Black
Robyn -
Thank you for this topic.
I would have to say I'm in a border line tolerance/acceptance situation. When I first came out to my wife a few years ago she felt betrayed and didn't want to see me dressed. Over time she came to tolerate/accept my dressing. She gave me some of her clothes she no longer wore or didn't fit her and helped me shop online for bras and dresses. When they arrived she had me try them on so she could make sure they fit. Her attitude was if I was going to dress I needed to look pretty. Again over time she became more tolerant to the point of going for mani-pedi's together and agreeing to me getting color on my toes. Eventually she suggested I spend the day dressed. That was an interesting day - it was last Easter, she was making dinner and she said people don't get dressed up anymore for Easter - why don't you get dressed for the day. I was surprised but went and changed into a dress, wig and put on make up, needless to say I also had on a bra and panties. When I was done I went downstairs weraing my heels. When she saw me she said hello Suzanne don't you look pretty. I spent the rest of the day with her dressed. That has happened a few times since. Last year she asked if I thought about getting my ears pierced and for my birthday took me to get them done. We've been shopping in stores and thrift shops for things for both of us. She took me to a shoe store once for shoes for Suzanne and had me try the shoes on. All of that was done in drab, but the fact that she did that with me was nice. She doesn't want me dressing outside the house and I am fine with that. There have been times that I have gone out wearing a pair of ankle boots she helped me buy. She said they look like men's cowboy boots so she is okay with that. There have been a few times when we have had discusssions about my dressing that she has said I am more girly than her which was nice to hear. She also said she liked having Suzanne around at times as she never had a girly relationship with friends growing up as she was more into sports. Honestly I'm happy with how things are. Would I like to go out dressed - yes, will it happen - probably not but I'm not giving up hope.
XOXO
Suzanne
@cdsue No, don't give up hope. I only recently spent a weekend dressed out in public with my wife and even though I felt content dressing at home there was something unexpectantly special about walking out in public.
Cheers Suzanne
@cdsue Thank you for writing this Suzanne, it gives me hope. I only came out very recently to my OH and as of now we're definitely in the stage of feeling betrayed and not wanting any of it around her. Although some of the details do differ as to what she sees as acceptable for men, and I have my own place to dress and go out. Maybe in time we can progress to the stage that you're in with your wonderful wife.
@cdsue Wonderful wife, wonderful life. It's so wonderful to learn about couples that actually seem to have things working to a point where both of you are content and satisfied. And as far as going out dressed. Be patient, keep communicating, and if she's shown you this much love, well then perhaps some day she will show you even more.
My wife tolerates because she is disabled and I have to do everything for her. But she does not accept - that is a bridge too far for her.
Alice Black
I'm always a little torn when this subject comes up because I'm incredibly fortunate and don't want to come across as a humblebrag, but here we go. My wife and I are very close, the very best of friends and I would rather do nothing with her than something with someone else. We talk about everything, our interests, dreams, intimate desires, etc. there is nothing out of bounds. Early in our relationship, I would drop hints about dressing and how much I liked it but it was always in an intimate context. Then she said to me once "you can take this as far as you need to, you know" and then Nikki began to assert herself outside of our usual context and she observed that "this isn't about sex for you." Along the way we had many conversations and she was unfailingly supportive at every step. It's not an exaggeration to say that without her as a sounding board my own self acceptance would have taken much longer.
To borrow Angela's word, my wife has EMBRACED Nikki. She actively enjoys it, enjoys being out in the world with me en femme, encourages me and generally creates a safe space for me to be all I am. She bought me my first pair of heels, my first (and still favorite) dress, breast forms, and more. Without her active engagement, I would not have the accepting circle of friends that I do. I can dress however and whenever I want, but even more that she will often tell me to put on something pretty. Once I got overwhelmed by the degree of her support and encouragement and tearfully asked her why, and she told me this: loving me the way that she does moves her to want to know all of me, to SEE all of me, and that Nikki has opened a whole new and fun way for us to experience our love together. Another not insignificant detail is that my wife was raised by a close knit lesbian family, and I think having two moms in a lifelong interracial marriage probably expanded her own thinking about LGBTQ+ issues and society. She also came out as bi when she was a college freshman, so she has her own personal LGBTQ connection as well. I have a hunch that all of these factors have had a role in her expansive embrace (thanks, again, Angela; it's very apt) of femme me. Apologies for length!
I feel a bit greedy buying lottery tickets; I've already won!
PS This is the second marriage for both of us. I spent half my life with someone who couldn't accept me on a fundamental level. Crossdressing never came up; it couldn't.
@justnikki , I am also very lucky to have a wife that has not only "embraced" Davita (Thank you, Angela) but also helped me to discover more about myself. Those wives should be celebrated!
Congratulations Nikki. You are one lucky girl! I've been married for 37 years and I sort of feel in a similar situation to your first marriage. In all that time neither of us have learned the slightest thing about what makes the other tick! Leads to all sorts of difficulties, and she knows nothing about my propensity to slip into a nice dress and heels 😂 xx.
I would rather do nothing with her than something with someone else
That is so beautiful.
@ellyd22 my wife is tolerant. She will do things for Lorraine if asked, but never volunteers. Strangely, she is accepting of my being in a nightie for bed. ( we have not been intimate for years). I feel she would rather it all never happened, and is not interested in seeing my therapist. Tolerance/ acceptance is like the cross dress drug. You want more and more. When she does something nice for Lorraine, she wants more and more. A very selfish attitude for someone lucky enough to still have a relationship.
Once I got overwhelmed by the degree of her support and encouragement and tearfully asked her why, and she told me this: loving me the way that she does moves her to want to know all of me
Nikki I knew about your amazing wife but the depth and richness of your description is beyond anything I've read before. I was moved to tears. It is truly rare to have a partner accept us the way yours has. My relationship experiences don't come close.
However, I can say that I've experienced the overwhelming love of this community. The ladies I've bonded with....the ones I love dearly....they've given me the support and encouragement I needed to find myself. I think about that a lot these days. It moves me to tears every time. Tears of joy. I'm incredibly fortunate.
Big hug sister,
Emily
@justnikki Thank you for sharing Nikki. You're absolutely right I think, your wife comes from a background of both diversity and love. She is able to see YOU and together you've created this incredible love story. I would love to someday meet people like you.
Thank you for this very important topic Robyn, one that touches us all in different ways. I think that the discussion about acceptance needs to be viewed from the context of the very human need to "fit in." Everyone, husbands and wives, have gone through that mill. As young people trying to find where we fit into the world around us which is fraught with miss-steps and anguish, forming our world view. There is nothing easy on either side of the husband/wife equation which is why I thing if takes a great deal of kindness to accept ones self and ones partner. Although, I do feel it does get easier with time, just because as you get older you just get tired of trying to fit in and realize that it doesn't matter much in the grand scheme of things.
I am fortunately my wife is a very kind person, she has helped me explore my feminine side and there are many things we enjoy together, whether that is looking at fashion, going thrift shopping (that may be our down fall) and all those other things that we enjoy doing. I am truly blessed and hope the same for all of you lovely ladies around the world.
This is a great topic!
My wife is accepting & supportive.
I am not anywhere on the transgender spectrum. I am a crossdresser, because I do not deny my gender.
My wife has always been encouraging. For example, if we are out shopping together and I show interest in a particular dress or a piece of jewelry, she will encourage me to buy it.
We often go out together as two girls
Her view has always been that the female clothes are just that, just clothing. I am still her husband, even though I sometimes wear female clothing. I once posted here on CDH, "Some men play golf, I play girl." I believe that still holds true for me and for my wife. Rather than play golf I would much rather doll myself up with make up, put on a pretty dress, slip into some high heels and go out in public where people could see how pretty I look. My wife often accompanies me. We make it a girls day out.
When I have been involved with support groups, my wife has joined in right with me in an effort to support the spouses, SOs, and GFs of crossdressers. We both served on the administrative board of the TRIESS group here in Atlanta until that group was taken over by a negative power person, at which time, we resigned.
There's more I could say. I have sat through many support meetings and listened to the dynamics of many marriages and relationships. They are all different, very different in so many ways.
@catgurl Thank you Peggy Sue for your wonderful thoughts. It must be so affirming to you for your wife to participate in so much of your life as Peggy Sue. I and so many others in the "great nowhere of DADT" look up to you both. And thank you to both of you in your efforts in helping to promote and support crossdressers through your prior work with TRIESS.
Please forgive my ignorance but, what is “DADT”?
Hey Melody
DADT is 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell'.
It applies to situations where an SO is aware of their partner's crossdressing but wants it to be kept completely separate from their relationship; they don't ever want to see it, and they don't ever want to hear about it.
This is the reality for many crossdressers.
Ellie x
Ah, of course.
Thank you for clarifying that for me.
I think acceptance and tolerance are part of the toing and froing of relationships in many areas.
I have mentioned before that I like hunting and we also butcher our own livestock for meat. My wife hates the processes, but tolerates it.
Im ok with my wife not being fully onboard with my CDing. I love being her husband. And she doesn't want me to be her girlfriend. I think that's ok.
There is not much that I can add here that hasn’t already be said. I’m so lucky to have a wife that is totally acceptant and tolerant of my crossdressing. We have been married for 48 years and we are still best friends. She loves me for who I am and always supports me in every way. We talk about it all the time and never hide anything but above all mutual respect is the key. I believe respect and honesty for each other is the key to our long marriage. We have always had a common goal for us. We have our arguments but we always talk about them in a civil manner and never fight. I’ll say it again, unconditional mutual respect.
I am not quite sure of the difference between acceptance and tolerance. I tend to use them interchangeably. My wife accepts/tolerates that I crossdress and knows how much I like to do so. She tolerates me dressing full monty once or twice a week, has tolerated a weekend with me and an old GG friend in a nearby tourist town, tolerates occasional visits from a gay friend who comes to visit Elaine, allows me to travel to the Keystone Conference, and more recently allowed a home visit of one of my CDH friends. On the other hand, she is not supportive. She doesn't want me to go outside of our home - except on rare occasions with guardrails in place. The only tips she has offered is how to better clean up makeup. She fears, and rightly so, that crossdressing for me is a slippery slope. The more I dress the more I want to dress. If I am allowed to go out the more I will want to go out. The old cliché - give an inch take a mile - applies.
@elguapo Very good point, the more you find yourself able to go out the more intoxicating it can become which means of course, you want to go out more and more. I find myself tamping those feelings down as best I can. Thank you for that thought.
