Notifications
Clear all

Welcome to Crossdresser Heaven, a safe and welcoming place for everyone in the crossdresser community.

Join Crossdresser Heaven today to participate in the forums.

Why can't men wear women's clothing?

96 Posts
28 Users
343 Reactions
1,283 Views
Posts: 4023
Lady
Topic starter
(@harriette)
Illustrious Member     Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Joined: 2 years ago

This is a common lament of MtF crossdressers: why can't I wear women's clothes when women can wear men's clothing? Many CDH members ask about it and we try to answer or explain it away the best that we can from our perspectives.

Women can wear general male looking clothes partly because of women's rights movements, entertainers (Marlene Dietrich, Sarah Silverman), bicycles, and wars, so it even took them a while to get where they are today. Not without lots of resistance, mind you, from conservatives who, by their very nature, don't accept change.

Today, I heard an explanation on YouTube's oldest channel (also their oldest news channel) that was given to help put a news story into context. It was narrated by a relatively young male who had earlier discussed the story in a production meeting and a female co-worker gave him this as a reason:

The reason that it doesn't work the other way around "is that a man cannot wear women's clothes, for reasons that cannot be specifically articulated, because we don't want to reveal what we believe about women and the clothes that we want them to wear."

"Women's appearances and women's fashion are inherently sexualized and the clothing that is specific to women is that [I think that he meant to say "are what they are" here] because it has been pushed culturally to highlight secondary sexual characteristics of women."

Society says that if a man puts on a dress, then he must be thinking about sex, too. And we can't have that! There must also be something sexual about what clothes he is wearing.

Do you agree? Does this explain what we go through?

Reply
95 Replies
43 Replies
Duchess
(@loneleycd)
Joined: 5 years ago

Famed Member     Roland, Iowa, United States of America
Posts: 2157

@harriette For me, Harriette, I not only want to wear women's clothes but I want to go and apear to be a woman. Even going to be accepted as a woman.

I am not sure about hormones and surgeries, but any thing up to that YES YES YES.  I am accepted marginally in some of these spaces already. 

Cassie 

Reply
Managing Ambassador
(@lizk)
Joined: 5 years ago

Illustrious Member     North County San Diego, California, United States of America
Posts: 3859

@harriette 

Posted by: @harriette

The reason that it doesn't work the other way around "is that a man cannot wear women's clothes, for reasons that cannot be specifically articulated, because we don't want to reveal what we believe about women and the clothes that we want them to wear."

"Women's appearances and women's fashion are inherently sexualized and the clothing that is specific to women is that [I think that he meant to say "are what they are" here] because it has been pushed culturally to highlight secondary sexual characteristics of women."

Wow Harriette!  What a load of crap!  I don't dispute the veracity of what you saw.  Just amazed at the level of ignorance. 

NO!  I've never heard that BS explanation.  And I don't agree that it explains why men can't wear women's clothes. 

TBH, I doubt many people give it that much thought.  People are socialized to accept a narrow vision of how men are supposed to behave.  Any male that doesn't fit that vision is rejected.  There's not a lot of thought given to why things are the way they are. 

If more people actually did a deep dive into systemic transphobia, they'd find there's no good reason for it.  Breaking down the barriers of ignorance is the challenge.  That's happening, albeit slowly.  Things are getting better.

/EA

Reply
Lady
(@harriette)
Joined: 2 years ago

Illustrious Member     Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 4023

Posted by: @lizk

People are socialized to accept a narrow vision of how men are supposed to behave.  Any male that doesn't fit that vision is rejected.  There's not a lot of thought given to why things are the way they are.

That's for sure, but crossdressers still wonder why society has that narrow vision for men and why they won't change it. I certainly don't have the answer.

It took maybe a century for modern women to be able to wear men's wear or men's styles in public. Hopefully it doesn't take that long for men to be able to do the same thing.

 

Reply
(@justnikki)
Joined: 2 years ago

Prominent Member     Seattle, Washington, United States of America
Posts: 485

@emilyalt Seriously, that's some straight-up "male gaze" BS! I mentioned this to my wife and she got visibly angry before I could complete the sentence. Women fought long and hard to be able to present themselves as they choose, and suggesting that it all devolves to sexualizing themselves (presumably for men) is shockingly offensive.

For most men, any internal femininity is humiliating because women are held in such low regard generally in contemporary society, so wearing women's clothes is seen as a kind of debasement. Toxic masculinity is so prevalent that even many women have come to internalize it. Look no further than the "real men" tropes. Men who don't conform to this particular style of idealized masculinity are denied their very manhood. It's all so absurd.

Reply
Lady
(@harriette)
Joined: 2 years ago

Illustrious Member     Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 4023

@justnikki I have never heard crossdressing described as a debasement before. I don't feel any less worth when dressing, but some members here have expressed shame. Not the same thing.

I don't believe that I feel any shame, but I certainly ring my alarm bells when dressing in public. There are a few toxic people out there. Not as many in my area as I expected, though.

Reply
(@justnikki)
Joined: 2 years ago

Prominent Member     Seattle, Washington, United States of America
Posts: 485

@harriette I'm not calling it debasement, I'm simply speculating on the mindset of heteronormative men and women who look down on crossdressing.

Reply
Ambassador
(@alexina)
Joined: 1 year ago

Illustrious Member     Fife, United Kingdom
Posts: 2212

@harriette 

Hi, Harriette and thanks for bringing this topic up.

I agree with the others that, in this, still male-dominated society, men are encouraged, both explicitly and implicitly, to think of women as lesser beings. So, if a man wishes to wear clothing associated with women, there must be something wrong with him. This is the cause of so much shame and guilt that most of us have felt as crossdressers.

There is no doubt that things are changing, for example women's football used to be seen (by men) as not really serious or as women encroaching on men's sporting territory. But not any more, recent media coverage has gone a long way to showing that both women's and men's football are equally valid.

I had never heard of toxic masculinity until recently and, having looked at the reporting, I was shocked at the following these so-called influencers have. Humans, though, have a real need to belong. Unfortunately, belonging to most groups, and I'll note here that the CDH family most definitely is different, means defining one's group in opposition to one or more other groups, (Not one of us). I'll put my hand up here and state that I studied Social Anthropology so I tend to look at things through that particular lens.

I'll stop here before I fall into thesis mode but I think the responsibility to affect change lies with us, we have to attempt to normalise crossdressing in the eyes of others. How we do that is, I think, the subject of another topic but I invite suggestions (I don't mean to hijack your post!).

Again, thanks for this.

Allie 

 

Reply
Lady
(@harriette)
Joined: 2 years ago

Illustrious Member     Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 4023

@alexina Thank you, Allie. I would like to affect change, too, but I don't have the lifetime experience that many have or the skills to be effective, so I do what I can by just being out there, a foot soldier of sorts.

Reply
Lady
(@sashabennett)
Joined: 1 year ago

Noble Member     Wick, Caithness, United Kingdom
Posts: 804

@alexina Sounds like a good reason to start another topic?

Reply
Lady
(@joanarbour)
Joined: 9 years ago

Reputable Member     Missoula, Montana, United States of America
Posts: 169

@harriette from my personal experience, I have never felt “sexy” in my boy clothes but, as you pointed out, much feminine clothing is inherently sexualized because of the way it feels and looks. I believe that most men can’t imagine feeling sexy and can’t understand the feelings of men in dresses.

Reply
Ambassador
(@alexina)
Joined: 1 year ago

Illustrious Member     Fife, United Kingdom
Posts: 2212

@joanarbour 

Hi, Joan, that's definitely something I've noticed, I never look at drab me in the mirror and think, "Wow, I look great" like I do en femme. I do, however, make the distinction between sexy and sensual. I find the slinkier dresses and all the undergarments sensual.

I have both tights and real nylon stockings that require suspenders. I like the comfort and feel of fine tights but I do love the feel of really fine nylons, especially on newly waxed legs. In the past I got a sexual thrill from this but now, as I explained to my wife, it's not sexual as much as elegant that I feel. Maybe that's just me 👗😃

Allie 

 

Reply
Lady
(@joanarbour)
Joined: 9 years ago

Reputable Member     Missoula, Montana, United States of America
Posts: 169

@alexina I do understand the distinction you make and I agree. I will add sensual and elegant (sometimes, and a few other adjectives) but very few apply to the male me.

Reply
Lady
(@harriette)
Joined: 2 years ago

Illustrious Member     Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 4023

@joanarbour Oh, yeah. Some female clothing, including  club wear, are definitely sexy or sexualized.

Some crossdressers take interest in those styles. Can't say as I do. I have enough trouble filling in a practical closet.

Reply
Lady
(@joanarbour)
Joined: 9 years ago

Reputable Member     Missoula, Montana, United States of America
Posts: 169

@harriette club wear was way back when, before Moses.

Reply
Lady
(@harriette)
Joined: 2 years ago

Illustrious Member     Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 4023

@joanarbour While that may be true, there is still a lot of it around. It may have changed over the years, but it still is what it was - very sexy clothes.

Reply
(@lauren114)
Joined: 2 years ago

Noble Member     Delaware, United States of America
Posts: 1209

@joanarbour So true! I have never once felt sexy as a man.  The first time it happened to me as a woman was an amazing experience and has become part of the alure of femininity for me.

Reply
(@playinginmypanties)
Joined: 6 years ago

Estimable Member     Monroe, Connecticut, United States of America
Posts: 170

@harriette Who says they can't? I do and nobody bothers me! But I don't try to pass as a female! Times are changing for the better! If you want to wear female clothes, do it! The fashion police are disbanded!

Reply
Lady
(@harriette)
Joined: 2 years ago

Illustrious Member     Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 4023

@playinginmypanties Oh, there are still lots of people who don't think highly of males wearing female clothing. Many on CDH have written about not coming out to their family, or co-workers / employers, church, community for some definitely good reasons.

Count yourself lucky if you can.

Reply
(@playinginmypanties)
Joined: 6 years ago

Estimable Member     Monroe, Connecticut, United States of America
Posts: 170

@harriette Hi I don't try to pass as a woman. I'm on HRT and even being on that is not going to make pass as woman! I don't wear a wig or make -up at all. I just cross-dress. I'm HRT because I want real breasts! As a kid, the first time I saw them on a girl my age, I knew I wanted them. My wife is an RN in a city hospital and she can recognize transgendered people just by seeing them. She even works with a trans nurse on her floor. The hospital has 2 transgendered people working there. Since all my doctors know about me I go to them dressed. 

You are right about people not liking males wearing female clothes. But depending where you go, people don't notice or don't care if they see you. For the most part they have a smartphone glued to their face or they are focusing on themselves.  When I dress, I dress for my age and for where I'm going! Of course there are trouble makers out there! If you run into them, then run a way. Go somewhere safe.

You stated the first time you went out you wore bright red nails. Yes that got you noticed! I would bet also you were nervous and afraid, another reason you got noticed. So was I! That's because people can read body language! They can pick up when someone is nervous and afraid or very confident. That has a lot to do with if you are going to be harassed or left alone. People here state they are afraid to shop even in male mode in the women's clothes or intimates because they are afraid strangers that pass by will think or know they are shopping for themselves.  But most of them don't notice that person or if they do, they think he is shopping for a loved one! I say who cares what strangers think! Today the store clerks can get fired if they don't treat you properly. That is mainly because the store wants your money!

A lot of people don't give their families a chance. They are to afraid to tell them. Most employers have anti-discrimination rules in effect. They don't want to get sued. As for churches, if your church won't take you for who you are, then find another church! The pope wears a dress! I don't care what they call it. It is a dress!  We are adults and we are free to choose the clothes we wear. As for friends, if they can't accept a man wearing female clothes, then they are not a true friends. They are acquaintances only. I have one friend who knows about me. But because of his religious beliefs I tone down my outfits for him.

*Remember this reply is for why can't males wear female clothes and not about becoming a woman or trying to pass as one!

Movie actors and musicians have been wearing opposite genders clothes for a long time. People haven't harassed them.

If you look, today there a lot of teen and young adult females dressing in all male clothes walking around. There a lot of same males that are doing the same or utilizing some female clothes in their outfits. 10 years ago if you goggled panties for men, this site and others like it would have popped up first. Now websites that sell panties and bras made for men pop up first!  Lingerie made for men is selling like hot cakes. Men's underwear has taking notice and are now making more comfortable underwear for men. They are using the same fabrics as women's! They are even making them in women's cuts. Like thongs, bikinis, briefs and  Hi-cuts. There are more men wearing pantyhose then women right now.

The main thing is, it is clothing and that is all it is!! Clothing has no gender, only gender assigned to them. With the exception of the bra throughout history men have worn all types of female clothes. Prehistoric men were the first to wear the g string thong. They used it to protect their junk from getting injured while hunting. The Bra was invented by a man for women to wear in the movies! 

I will say it again life is way to short to worry about wearing any clothes. Do what you want and be who you want as long as you are not physically hurting anyone! Take care! Brenda

Reply
Lady
(@harriette)
Joined: 2 years ago

Illustrious Member     Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 4023

@playinginmypanties Obviously, so long as the clothes fit, men can wear women's clothing. The problem is whether society will accept us doing it or not. Generally, western societies say no.

My experience in dressing is mainly with underdressing or, as I expanded my closet, with androgynous looking women's clothes. With either of these ways, those who aren't really paying attention have no real idea about what I am doing. Few people would recognise whether the clothes were made for women or not. The style, materials, designs don't necessarily push any buttons. Society doesn't complain, here, because the crossdresser is "not in your face".

However, there are exceptions to this rule that I have described a few times on CDH, too. If I wear a bra with breast forms, an otherwise male with a moustache draws a few more glances because that kind of presentation is out of the ordinary. One of my most comfortable pair of women's shoes is a pair of black Mary Janes. I wore them in public going on a bus with my wife beside me. I had on dense enough black stockings that, from a distance, they could have been black socks. In a crowded bus, they drew no attention, until nearly everyone around us got off. A passenger that had been drinking New Year's Eve noticed, though, and it was obvious that my shoes bothered him enough to say to other passengers as he was leaving, "look, he is wearing women's shoes". There is no running away from that kind of random assault. He obviously disapproved.

Matrons sitting and people-watching in malls, even someone standing still while waiting for a bus, will scan me top to bottom, as I walk by, assessing what I wear. Who knows what goes on in their heads, but they aren't stupid. They know something is up, even if they don't instantly register what it is.

This isn't getting close to what happens if I get a bit more blatant, though. One day, I tested adding a black pencil skirt with a plain white buttoned shirt while mall walking / shopping. Not the most attention grabbing attire in an unusual location, right? I could sense the differences in reactions, though. Yes, store clerks are under certain restrictions, but shoppers are not. They are free to clock us and stare. No harm done, since they aren't likely to cause a big spectacle.

Is any of this changing the minds or attitudes of the general public. Not really. It barely registers on the Richter scale, but the more people do crossdress in public, the sooner change can happen.

Just a slight correction: by the time that I wore coloured nail polish in public, I was well versed in crossdressing as I do in public. The bright red nail polish was just something new for me. As a whole, it went unnoticed since I wasn't flaunting my nails. I was trying to be relaxed and acting natural about it. It seems to have worked in the very crowded environment.

Thanks for taking the time, Brenda, to express your thoughts about this.

Reply
(@playinginmypanties)
Joined: 6 years ago

Estimable Member     Monroe, Connecticut, United States of America
Posts: 170

@harriette

"Obviously, so long as the clothes fit, men can wear women's clothing. The problem is whether society will accept us doing it or not. Generally, western societies say no."

 The main stream of Western society is going to "who cares" and I would state it is no problem.

It Is just a bunch of hold outs and those are mainly based on religious beliefs!

Do you have My Chart or the Epic system for your medical care? There is a place in it where you can post your preferred name and your gender and sexual orientation in it. I have Brenda listed. If you go to Folx website you will see a man in a dress with a beard on HRT.

You State "If I wear a bra with breast forms, an otherwise male with a mustache draws a few more glances because that kind of presentation is out of the ordinary."   Yes you get more glances especially if they are large forms, but do you get harassed at all? If so tell them you have Gynecomastia and you are sick of chest binders and you are wearing a sports bra. 1 in 3 men will get Gynecomastia as they age.  That will shut them up. At our age it is not covered by insurance unless you get a doctor to state if is affecting your mental status. At $30k plus, State I can't afford that, if you need to!

I am almost a B cup so they are getting noticed! But I don't care. I joke with my friends that, if I had them when I was 13, my bed time would have been a lot better and I would have never gotten out of bed!

I'm not sure what else you were wearing but wearing Mary Jane's with male clothes would look not right. That's my opinion. I see your older like me and for the most part I don't wear male clothes except at weddings and graduation ceremonies. I don't want to be the center of attraction. But I wear women's shoes, except for Mary Jane's. I as some women don't like them. I'm also a fall risk! They are too unstable for me. But I have been asked why I wear heels. I tell them my feet hurt with male shoes and the next step is fusion surgery on both feet. (that part is true) But walking with 2-3 1/2 heals alleviate the pain greatly, which is also true. Try That!

If someone states I have on women's shoes on, I will say yes and do you like them! I act like I own it! Because I do! And so do you!

Look if I wear a dress and go out I do get stares and sometimes the stink eye. But I have never been directly hassled or stopped. I don't care what ever they think or about the stares or comments. Women that wear male clothes (the Butch look) also get stared at and get hassled too. I don't wear dress's much. I'm a pants, jeggings, leggings and women's jeans and shorts person.  Both skinny and loose fit!

If I'm going to be harassed, I will tell them I am Disabled and it is a felony to assault a disabled person. Then walk away. I also walk with a solid brass handle cane (I can't believe the TSA lets me bring it on the planes). If they won't let me walk away!  I also exercise my constitutional rights when I can. But in the last 5 years after I all but gave up on male clothes, I have had no confrontations at all. Don't let stares or words count as harassment! Unless it is in your face.  But I can't count the compliments I have gotten for my outfits!

I do believe that some crossdressers want to go out and be noticed! If that's what they want they will be noticed and bad things can come from that! There is an old saying, "If the circus comes to town, people are going to watch it!"  I just try to blend in.

If you dress for your age and go about your business like it is no big deal for the most part you will have no problems today. But if you dress and act like Elton John, Your going to have some problems. Only Elton can do that and get away with it!

Enjoy life!    Brenda

 

Reply
Lady
(@harriette)
Joined: 2 years ago

Illustrious Member     Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 4023

@playinginmypanties I like shoes that can be snuggled tightly enough to support the ankles and / or keep the shoe from flopping over. I have a number of zippered or slip-ons and there is no way that they are as secured as good Mary Janes or laced shoes.

While the style may be recognisable, when worn with black stockings and long enough pants, they didn't get noticed much. Just this one time, but that was one time too many for my wife. 🥰

Reply
Guest
(@Anonymous 94264)
Joined: 1 year ago

Estimable Member
Posts: 102

@harriette We can wear women's clothing. Unfortunately, through the years, cross-dressing has gotten a bad rap. I've had conversations with people who did not know I cross-dressed, and they all had similar points of view. They all implied that when they see men dressed as women, it's not that they have a problem with it as much as they have a problem with the person being overly flamboyant. They don't understand why they have to go out of their way to make it known who they are and what they are. They didn't understand why they couldn't just go about their day without all the need for attention. Many of us would love to go out and go about our day. Most of us don't want to be noticed. We don't like the attention. Then, on the other hand, you have these flamboyant CDs and Drag Queens that all they do is want attention and cause scenes and give the CDs a lousy rep and name. This is not an isolated problem for just CDs; it's a full-blown issue for many groups. It's an unfortunate thing, but it's something we have to deal with. Just be yourself, don't draw negative attention to your self and you should be just fine.

Reply
Lady
(@harriette)
Joined: 2 years ago

Illustrious Member     Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 4023

@chellycd Thanks. I guess I was lucky when I wore some bright green pants to highschool that I didn't get a good ribbing or even hazing. Different times in the '70s, I guess. 😁

Reply
Lady
(@angrilyamused)
Joined: 2 years ago

Estimable Member     Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Posts: 97

@harriette I’m the wrong person to ask, because my crossdressing has a heavy sexual component and I agree with that statement 🤷🏻 I believe that the folks who disagree fit the trans spectrum, whereas I do not — to the best of my knowledge.

Reply
Duchess
(@pattyphose)
Joined: 9 years ago

Famed Member     Long Island, New York, United States of America
Posts: 2296

@harriette I've been wearing "women's clothing" since I was 4. I began buying my own "women's clothing" clothes at 13, and began going out in "women's clothing" when I was 17.

I think I can wear "women's clothing and I do.

Reply
Lady
(@harriette)
Joined: 2 years ago

Illustrious Member     Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 4023

@pattyphose Of course we can wear women's clothing, if they fit, but the question is more of can we get away with it unscathed. Not everyone can, just yet.

Reply
Duchess
(@pattyphose)
Joined: 9 years ago

Famed Member     Long Island, New York, United States of America
Posts: 2296

@harriette If you dress in the privacy of your own home, of course you can dress freely. Going out, I agree is another matter. When I first began going out, I did it a little at a time. I started by driving around, stopping here and there and getting out of the car and walking around.

Then I began walking close to and among people. I would look for and listen for reactions. Most of the time, all I got was some looks. That emboldened me and I began getting more daring. My big and bold event was shopping for and buying pantyhose while wearing pantyhose in my little Daisy Duke outfit. That was scary, but it went off without incident and turned out to be an incredibly thrilling and exciting experience, as well a living out a long time dream and fantasy.

That led to doing more shopping for pantyhose, and eventually interactions with others. I've had women tell me I had nice legs, they liked my shoes, asked if the pantyhose I was buying was what I was wearing, and even politely telling me I had a run in my stocking.

Then I decided I had to try some shoe shopping. I went in the store and began trying on a pair of shoes. I thought I was getting a few looks. There was even a few who walked past me in my aisle, seemingly trying to get a closer look. I began walking about the store, posing in the mirrors and clearly getting looks. I looked back and did a thumbs up and yes nod, then a thumbs down and no nod. I got thumbs up and yes nod responses. So I tried on more shoes and solicited more approvals.

Back then, I wondered if I was getting looks because they didn't often see a guy wearing a Daisy Duke outfit or because I looked like a pretty, sexy girl. I was hoping the latter.

I went out often but only to places I felt were safe and when I felt they were safe. I also used to enjoy getting all femmed up and sexy and go walking around my college campus. I got ideas on what to wear to look my sexy best by seeing what other girls were wearing.

I prided myself on looking a lot different in femme mode then I did in guy mode. In fact at some parties, when I saw classmates and went to talk to them, they did not know who I was. Even when I told them they seemed to have a look of disbelief.

So, yes, I understand dressing femma and going out can be scary and dangerous. I surely wood not suggest or recommend you do it if you feel that way. If you do, be careful and vigilant. Know where you're going. And definitely don't do it if you're putting yourself in danger.

 

 

 

Reply
Lady
(@harriette)
Joined: 2 years ago

Illustrious Member     Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 4023

@pattyphose I have gone out somewhat en femme a few times. Last year, I dressed at our Pride Parade and hope to do the same thing again. Believe me, I am doing what I can at this stage.

Reply
(@lauren114)
Joined: 2 years ago

Noble Member     Delaware, United States of America
Posts: 1209

@harriette Simply put, it threatens the male patriarchy.  Anything perceived as weakening this patriarchy by blurring the lines between male and female is immediately attacked (i.e.toxic masculinity).

Reply
(@christineth)
Joined: 2 years ago

Noble Member     Brussels, Brabant, Belgium
Posts: 747

@harriette Harriette, that seems like a good rational reasoning for the taboo that society places on MTF crossdressing.  But it is certainly true that crossdressing is not only sexual…I feel like a woman and I love dressing, sex does not come into it.  Although if I am completely honest, as a teenager there was a element of sexual excitement derived from dressing, but as a teenager, most things were exciting in that way.

 I really hope with time that society come to understand that we are not so monodimensional and that dressing is more about the emotions of being who we really are.

Thank you so much for sharing this theory.

Hugs

Christine

Reply
Lady
(@tia)
Joined: 9 months ago

Reputable Member     Shady Cove, Oregon, United States of America
Posts: 140

@harriette I think it has to do with the heroic image of the knight on a white horse riding in at the last minute to save the poor defenseless woman. If a man has long hair, he must want to be a weak woman and if people see that then it diminishes all of our manhood, and we can't let that happen because somebody might think we are all weak. Another thing is that some of it might rub off on me and I'll want to be a weak woman.

My dad had ideas that were absolute and not open for discussion. That way he wouldn't have to think about the person that made him uncomfortable. If you have a beard, you were a hippie and therefore not worth thinking about. If you believed in God, you were a Christian. If you were in the military, you were lazy and couldn't get a job anywhere else.

It is a whole process designed so you didn't have to think too much. When you can put a person into a pigeonhole, they ceased to be a person and became an object. Lastly, if you wear a dress you are a sissy. Hmmm, that doesn't actually sound to bad now that I think about it. Closed Eye Kiss Trans Heart  

Reply
Lady
(@harriette)
Joined: 2 years ago

Illustrious Member     Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 4023

@tia If it is true that society gets upset at males crossdressing because it makes males look weak, then that idea must at a pretty subtle level. I am sure that it may be part of it for some people, but then if we asked them why they were upset that they probably would have a difficult time putting their thoughts into words anyway. Because it is too subtle?

Reply
Lady
(@tia)
Joined: 9 months ago

Reputable Member     Shady Cove, Oregon, United States of America
Posts: 140

@harriette I think you're right about it being too subtle. They would probably have some answer that satisfies themselves but has little to do with the real reason.

Reply
 Lacy
Duchess
(@rholtman96)
Joined: 2 years ago

Reputable Member     Lincoln city, Oregon, United States of America
Posts: 198

@harriette I've never been told I can't wear women's clothes but I have been told I shouldn't, because they were made for a woman not a man. Oh well, I wear them anyway and have done so for about 61 years now. I don't intend to stop anytime soon, as a matter of fact I wear them more often now than I ever did when I was young. Today I at least underdress every day and fully dress 3 to 4 times a week. I would dress every day but my wife likes to see me in blue jeans a couple of times a week.

Lacy

Reply
Lady
(@leainvancouver)
Joined: 1 year ago

Prominent Member     Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Posts: 379

@harriette I think there is a grain of truth in what she says. Ironically in most of the animal kingdom, especially in birds, males are the colourful ones to attract a mate. Perhaps it’s time for a reversal? 😉 

I have disposed of all my male clothes, preferring women’s clothes. Short of wearing a dress, it’s surprising what I can wear and although my appearance may be considered androgynous, I am quite comfortable in my appearance. 

I do love to present as fully female and enjoy being with other girls on a night out. I’m two spirit and my dress and appearances reflect that. So men can wear many female clothes and not catch too much attention in my opinion. Wear what you feel most comfortable wearing. 

Reply
Lady
(@harriette)
Joined: 2 years ago

Illustrious Member     Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 4023

Posted by: @leainvancouver

although my appearance may be considered androgynous, I am quite comfortable in my appearance.

I do this, too, and am quite comfortable doing it. I try to do more and am still learning, so I plan to do more over time.

 

Reply
(@marleneroberts)
Joined: 5 years ago

Honorable Member     Allentown, Pennsylvania, United States of America
Posts: 575

@harriette  To my mind,generally/mostly when a women puts on male garb such trouser/pants/long pants/shirts they still want to be seen and treated as a women. When a man puts on visible female clothes he wants to be seen as a female. A big difference. Best, Marlene. PS should not have drunk that Champagne with wife before writing this reply. Hiccup!

Reply
Lady
(@gil)
Joined: 9 years ago

Estimable Member     Bay Area, California, United States of America
Posts: 59

@harriette I don't wear women's clothes. I wear my clothes which happen to be a bit feminine. Maybe women just don't want us to have fun the way they do. When a woman has told me it is wrong I ask them why are they wearing pants? They must be thinking about sex too. Besides I didn't get the memo that stated women made the rules of anything.

Reply
Lady
(@harriette)
Joined: 2 years ago

Illustrious Member     Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 4023

@gil Women definitely get to set some rules that affect them. No means no, for example, or regarding their health or bodily autonomy.

Reply
Lady
(@sunnyday)
Joined: 2 years ago

Estimable Member     Oxford, Oxfordshire, United Kingdom
Posts: 140

@harriette - this is the billion dollar question Harriette.

The thing is, men can wear women's clothing - but they are either widely mocked, or shunned for it. Positive acceptance is the rarer thing.

I think we're probably short on well researched studies into the real nature and reasons for attitudes and reactions towards men who where clothing we associate with women. It's a complex issue I think.

Maybe one thing is that men are not expected to stand out per se. So men who dress flamboyantly, albeit in mens attire, can be mocked or shunned for breaking the mould - my ties, socks, and shirts caused a stir and were mocked (before they became more fashionable). Wearing a dress is a further step beyond the accepted gender conformity.

I also suspect there is something about fabrics, colours and shapes that combine more aesthetically with skin texture and hair types, facial characteristics, and body shapes - which is why we pay a lot of attention to make up and shaving perhaps.

I'm reasonably sure most women don't get a sexual thrill out of wearing a dress and neither do all men who wear dresses, but some people have a general presumption that men who wear dresses do it for their own sexual gratification. I imagine a woman who wears a sexy dress might not get a sexual thrill out of it but may be assumed to be trying to be sexually attractive to others.

However, it is my belief that we should be able to, and indeed in the UK at least, are able to wear clothes aimed at women.

Complex issue. Further research required.

 

Reply
Lady
(@harriette)
Joined: 2 years ago

Illustrious Member     Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 4023

@sunnyday Well said, Alli. I agree with a lot of what you said.

Re: not standing out

Depending on the era, some times were more flamboyant than others. The hippie era would be one, the Renaissance era would be another. Societal class also divides us by fashion, too, if not for just financial reasons.

Nature has its own rules. It's just that humans can break the norm, the rules, if we want to do so.

Reply
Lady
(@sunnyday)
Joined: 2 years ago

Estimable Member     Oxford, Oxfordshire, United Kingdom
Posts: 140

@harriette - David Bowie started a 'Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Long Haired Men'.

Reply
Posts: 879
Lady
(@mary)
Noble Member     Sydney, New South Wales, Australia
Joined: 4 years ago

I have a few plain cotton dresses and denim skirts that are my farm work clothes. They certainly don't sexualise any fantasy as such. But they are very practical. 

Reply
14 Replies
Lady
(@harriette)
Joined: 2 years ago

Illustrious Member     Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 4023

@mary I think the idea was that society sexualizes the clothing and that they are the ones who think the crossdressers are fantasizing about them.

A few members here have written about sexual reactions to wearing women's clothing, but, in general, ignorance causes lots of issues, not just for us.

Reply
(@playinginmypanties)
Joined: 6 years ago

Estimable Member     Monroe, Connecticut, United States of America
Posts: 170

@harriette I don't believe society sexualizes clothing! They sexualize what the clothing does for the person wearing them. As a crossdresser we see a women wearing a nice outfit and the first thing we think is how that would look on me. The rest of society looks at how pretty she looks! The men's suit companies state "clothes make the man"! That's not true at all. If your not man enough then the clothes won't make you more of a man.

Clothes make people feel comfortable and they make them feel better about theirselves. People get the look they want to express themselves and are more happy in life. We (crossdressers) are allowed to express ourselves as we want to be.

Like I said dress in what you want. But if the clothes you are wearing are as outlandish as Elton john's clothing. You will be noticed and have a higher potential for harassment and violence. If you basically follow what women are wearing for your age, then you will have a better time going out.

As for your bus incident, a drunk guy telling other passengers you were wearing women's shoes and asking why. I would not call that harassment at all. If he got in your face about it and occupied your space then it would be harassment. If that happened then you should have called the police.

I have been asked why I wear women's clothes and had people point out that I'm wearing them! If i'm asked why I tell them I feel more comfortable in them. I have been asked about my painted nailed and I tell them I like color on me but hate tattoos. Which is 100% true.

People can be mean but it is not just us! They make fun of disfigured people, people in wheelchairs, people with burn scars and just about anything that separates them from the norm in society. They stare and make comments all the time! But for the most part that's all they do.

For me dressing up to go out does not make me aroused at all! Except lingerie for the bedroom. Then I feel sexy!

I will say it again, Don't worry about others and live the life you want!

Reply
Lady
(@harriette)
Joined: 2 years ago

Illustrious Member     Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 4023

Posted by: @playinginmypanties

I don't believe society sexualizes clothing!

Sexualize: make sexual; attribute sex or a sex role to.

Revealing styles or colours of clothing certainly attribute a sex role to them.

Spaghetti string tops, shoe styles, transparent cloth or cutouts, pastel colours, skirts and dresses are all attributed to females.

How many men would be accosted by females for what they wear? (unless you are Billy Gibbons in a music video - Sharp Dressed Man) 

 

Reply
(@playinginmypanties)
Joined: 6 years ago

Estimable Member     Monroe, Connecticut, United States of America
Posts: 170

@harriette 

Look any woman can sexualize herself without wearing clothes! For men they just have to be naked!!!! As I said non-crossdressers don't look at the clothes first! They look at the person wearing them first and think how sexy they look in the outfit. They don't care about the clothes at all.

Crossdressers look at the clothes first thinking "how would those clothes look on me? OR I would look so hot in that outfit!"  We care about the clothes first! That is the life of a crossdresser! I look at the clothes first then the beauty of the woman second. I also look at their breasts and think how they would look on me!!

If putting on female clothes just to go somewhere turns you on, then you have a clothes fetish also!

I just like the clothing and the way they fit and feel (comfortable on me). Like I said unless it is in the bedroom.  I wear female clothes and no make-up or wig and I look like a male in female clothes. I don't get bothered. I have never been harassed (knock on wood). Just a few stares and some stink eyes. If they have said something, I haven't heard them as I'm half deaf. But I all most always get complements on my outfits, shoes or nail colors.

Clothing has no gender at all. They can't reproduce in any way! LOL  Society puts gender assignment on clothes. But today the fashion police are all but dead!! If you look at Bra and panty makers web sites, you will see they have added gender in their reviews. Hanes Place, Maidenform, Bali bras and Ronda sheer have a spot to choose your gender when reviewing panties and bras!

You seem to be fighting me on that. But what I said is true! For the most part people don't notice or care what someone is wearing, unless they are sticking out like a sore thumb.

Reply
Lady
(@harriette)
Joined: 2 years ago

Illustrious Member     Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 4023

Posted by: @playinginmypanties

Society puts gender assignment on clothes.

Everything starts from there, right? And to which gender a particular item is assigned can change.

High heels used to be worn mainly by men in the 1700s, then they were appropriated by women as a way to masculinize their fashion. Well, for at least the 50 years after men gave them up. Since then heels were worn mainly by women, cowboys and dandies in the 1970s, depending on particular generations or needs.

The same could be said for frilly shirts or blouses, and colours in general, such as pink.

The clothes don't care who wears them. People do.

 

Reply
(@playinginmypanties)
Joined: 6 years ago

Estimable Member     Monroe, Connecticut, United States of America
Posts: 170

@harriette 

 What starts from there? So what are you getting at? Have you been beaten up or really harassed for wearing the clothes you like? 

This is LBGTQ+ pride month! The country is accepting everybody for the most part! As I said stores are accepting us and allowing our gender to be seen in our reviews. More and more people are tolerating different strokes for different folks.  What more do you want? But I also said there will always be hold outs. There are hold outs for every aspect of society! I haven't read stories about crossdressers being assaulted or arrested like I did 10 years ago. Society is now swapping clothes more often then not!

I have been just about everywhere wearing female clothes and have not been bothered. I go to parties, doctors and hospitals with no problems. They call me Brenda by name. All I do is dress for where I'm going and act like I belong there! I have the same amount of fear dressed as if I was wearing male clothes. The fear of being robbed or carjacked!

If you can't do that without being hassled, then take a long look why you can't! Even if it means going to a therapist for help if you can't figure out why! 

A positive attitude goes a long way! Have a good one Brenda

Reply
Lady
(@harriette)
Joined: 2 years ago

Illustrious Member     Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 4023

@playinginmypanties According to posts here on CDH, there are three main groups that influence whether we dress publicly or secretly: family, friends, and co-workers. There have also been a few that won't do it in public because of their community.

Every single one of these influences must still be taken seriously, unfortunately.

Reply
(@playinginmypanties)
Joined: 6 years ago

Estimable Member     Monroe, Connecticut, United States of America
Posts: 170

@harriette 

 No it is the people who crossdress who decide where and when they crossdress! Way too many of them are afraid to tell their families and friends that they want to wear "female clothes"! They are afraid their families, friends and society will shun them or harass them.

 If a persons spouse, boyfriend or girlfriend won't accept a person for who they are, then there was no true love at all.

 If a persons family will not accept a crossdresser and ban them for life just because they crossdress. They were never a complete family unit that truly loves and accepts a member for who they really are.

 If a crossdresser's friends won't accept them for who they are. Then they aren't a real friend(s) in the first place. True friends accept you for who you are! They may not agree with you, but they are still a true friend!

  You are lucky to have one true friend in life. I happen to have two true friends that know who I am.

 As for co-workers. They are just that! CO-WORKERS! They are not friends or family!!! If they hassle a person through discrimination and the work place doesn't do anything to stop it, then the person(crossdresser) will have one heck of a lawsuit. Then he or she can move to someplace new and start over if they want to.

 One more is society. If you leave your home dressed the way you want to express yourself and get harassed or assaulted then that's what the police are for. You also have a right to protect yourself! But if you truly can't trust where you live and go out dressed then move to a new neighborhood where you won't be bothered. Or see a therapist because that might all be in your head!! I'm talking about the one above your shoulders! LOL.

 When you come out to your family and friends. At first they might not like it and say nasty things. But if you give it time and they will think about just what you are doing and they most likely will just ending up accepting you for who you are. We are not criminals for gods sake!

We can sit here and complain about how unfair the world is or we can JUST DO IT!!!!

 I just do it and I have said (knock on wood) that I have not been harassed or bothered when I leave my house! If that happens I will handle it. But it won't stop me from being who I am.

 I said one of my best friends has strong religious beliefs but knows who I am. He thinks when I die, I will meet the devil! But he is still my friend and I tone down my clothing for him when I see him and his wife. His adult kids love the fact I dress by the way. Point is sometimes you have to give in a bit too. This is called give and take!

This my last reply to this part of why men can't wear female clothes. But I will say it again!

LIFE IS TO SHORT TO WORRY ABOUT WHAT OTHER PEOPLE THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU DO!!!

As long as you are not physically harming another person then JUST DO IT!

Peace out and enjoy life as you see fit! Brenda

Reply
Duchess
(@alison-anderson)
Joined: 6 years ago

Noble Member     Middlesex county, New Jersey, United States of America
Posts: 1742

@playinginmypanties This is a very cavalier, "Let them eat cake," attitude.

If you're harrased at work, yes you may be able to sue. But it will cost a lot of money to do so, and you may not win. You have to prove what happened. You may be let go from work. Many people can be let go for any reason. It's up to you to prove that it was because of how you dressed. And you may not find another job with the same pay, convenience from home (commuting cost or time), same benefits, or the same number of vacation days because you're starting new.

The police are not likely to do anything about verbal harrassment. If they aren't physically threatening you, it's their right of free speech. If you are attacked (maybe not by your neighbors, but when out and about), even if they can find the person, you still have to deal with the emotional scars and possibly therapy.

Moving to someplace else may not be a viable option. It could cost you more to move. The new place could be smaller yet cost more. You may have to get a car and pay insurance where before you could walk or take public transit to work or go shopping.

Talk to some people here who have lost parents, spouses, siblings, or children because they came out. Not everybody will "come around." You may lose these people for the rest of your life.

Like it or not, we are social creatures. We don't do things in a vacuum. You have to weigh the potential consequences, and decide whether it is worth it or not. You may not have to worry about what a person you pass on the street thinks, or what a shopkeeper thinks. But for certain people in your life, you DO have to worry about what they think. You may come to the conclusion that "this is so important to me I have to do it anyway." But you may also come to the conclusion of "I can't afford (physically or emotionally) to lose my job/my relative(s)/my home."

Reply
(@playinginmypanties)
Joined: 6 years ago

Estimable Member     Monroe, Connecticut, United States of America
Posts: 170

@alison-anderson  Hi sorry for the late reply!

You maybe right about everything you stated! All that might be true!

BUT!!! This your life! Trust me it is way too short and goes by real fast! You can choose to live it the closet as a lot people do.

OR You can live life the way you want to and be who you are! There is a guy who spent $16K on a dog outfit because he believes he is a dog. I support him as that is the life as he see's it!

Either way is going to be hard and unfair! That is life! It is not easy or giving! What you put into life is what you get out from life.

I'm 60 years old and it took me a long time(way too long) to realize that no matter what I do, I'm gonna be who I am! I am now on HRT and I wished I did that 50 years ago.

I choose to stand up and be who I am! I believe it helps others in this world as well as it helps me. I will fight for who I am if I have too. I would rather be six feet underground then go back to my old life! My HRT is putting a serious risk medically on my life, but my doctors agree that it is better for me psychologically. PM me if you want to know how.

That is why I say it as I do. But people must make that decision on their own, or with the the help of a therapist or psychologist if needed. I have always suggested for anyone and everyone to speak with a therapist if they have questions. As it never hurts to speak with the pros! The benefits of that makes life better for people.

I am married 35 years wife, family. and for the most part friends accept me. They might not agree with me completely but they like and love me. A lot of people here never give their families and friends a chance. I know of their hesitance and their extreme fears! But if they want to express themselves the way they see themselves, they have to give them a chance!

Plus if you are harassed at work because of your life choices or gender. There are plenty of lawyers out there to represent you pro bona. It is all up to you! You can live the life the way you want to or hide from society. We are social creatures and we have the right to express ourselves as we see fit. Either way it is gonna take work! You can work hard at hiding it or you can work hard at being you! 

Please remember this post is "Why can't men wear women's clothes" ! And my answer to that is They can if they want to! Whether it is in their home or wherever they want too! The choice is up to them.

Thanks Brenda

Reply
Lady
(@tia)
Joined: 9 months ago

Reputable Member     Shady Cove, Oregon, United States of America
Posts: 140

@harriette Oh yeah, the macho man must certainly be the object of every girl's affection. Too true.

Reply
Lady
(@harriette)
Joined: 2 years ago

Illustrious Member     Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 4023

@tia But do men's clothes actually make them macho or look more macho? Military uniforms? Wife-beater T-shirts? Cargo shorts down below their knees? Untied running shoes? Yeah, real macho. 😁

Women's clothes can certainly help women or CDs look more sexy, though, right?

Reply
Lady
(@tia)
Joined: 9 months ago

Reputable Member     Shady Cove, Oregon, United States of America
Posts: 140

@harriette I was at a pizza parlor the other day and there was a couple sitting a few tables away. When they got up to leave, I saw he had on cowboy boots with spurs, a cowboy hat of course, and a gun belt with an old-style Colt revolver, which is legal here. This definitely said macho.

Almost any women's clothes, if worn properly, can sexy along with the attitude of the person wearing them.

Reply
Lady
(@harriette)
Joined: 2 years ago

Illustrious Member     Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 4023

Posted by: @tia

Almost any women's clothes, if worn properly, can sexy along with the attitude of the person wearing them.

Or, as mentioned in another thread, Marilyn Monroe could make a potato sack look good.

 

Reply
Posts: 17
(@ellieprincess18)
Trusted Member     São Paulo, Brazil
Joined: 12 months ago

I don't really think about dressing up to "look sexy" and stuff like that, i just reaaaally love looking cute! besides i think some of the "sexy" stuff is kinda uncomfy, maybe i'm just not used to that stuff but yeah, i don't know about that theory... i still believe it has much more to do with the people that are terrified of change and all that

Reply
1 Reply
Lady
(@harriette)
Joined: 2 years ago

Illustrious Member     Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 4023

@ellieprincess18 I want to look good, too, not necessarily to "look sexy". Resisting change is definitely part of our crossdressing life, though.

Reply
Posts: 106
Duchess
(@jrm3702)
Estimable Member     New Jersey, United States of America
Joined: 5 years ago

Well, the co-worker did say 'for reasons that couldn't be specifically articulated', and then didn't specifically articulate any actual reasons.  So up to there it sounds to me like she's on solid ground...? 

After that, as one might expect, the 'reasoning' as to why it 'doesnt work' presumes that every MtF crossdresser's image of women is inherently degrading. Why else would we not want to reveal what we believe about women, or what we believe about what they should wear?  Meanwhile, Men, as a class, are not particularly reserved about acting or speaking on disempowering beliefs about who women should be or how they should appear--but no mention of that.  And of course the same point about cultural influence, projection, and inherent sexualization in design could equally be said of 'mens' clothing.

It is interesting that the process of seeking a rationale always somehow seems to lead back into these phobic dead ends.  It is because that process begins with the presumption that we owe an explanation, and others are entitled to one.  So Yes, in that way, it does explain a lot of what we go through. 

Reply
Posts: 4023
Lady
Topic starter
(@harriette)
Illustrious Member     Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Joined: 2 years ago

Crossdressers themselves have a difficult enough time explaining why we dress, so having non-crossdressers try to explain why seems like a mug's game.

Reply
1 Reply
(@playinginmypanties)
Joined: 6 years ago

Estimable Member     Monroe, Connecticut, United States of America
Posts: 170

@harriette 

 There is nothing to explain! Crossdressing is like drinking a beer. If you like female clothes wear them. If you like beer just drink it! Or maybe broccoli might be a better example!

Reply
Posts: 804
Lady
(@sashabennett)
Noble Member     Wick, Caithness, United Kingdom
Joined: 1 year ago

Sounds like someone is overthinking things on this channel, which seems to be a thing these days in almost every aspect of life. I think that the real reasons are a bit more straightforward when you boil it down. Basically society is split into men & women & clothes are just a part of that split. Most of society is perfectly happy with that state of affairs & anyone who goes against the grain doesn't fit in & are therefore pushed to the margins. People (as a group) just don't like anything that rocks the boat. Also, in even more simplistic terms, women's clothes are cut to fit women's bodies, not men's so they look out of place. Last night I happened to see a picture of the actor John Cena wearing a mini skirt. It wasn't a good look!

Attitudes change over time & it feels to me like there are the beginnings of a shift going on right now. The fact that the debate is happening at all & opinions are getting so polarlsed is, strangely, something I find encouraging. Granted the debate is more about the transgender issue than crossdressing but it is all a part of the same topic  My inner boffin thinks that the third law of thermodynamics is in play here, namely that all things go from hot to cold so heated debates inevitably cool down over time as a new equilibrium is reached. There is no guessing where the level will be but things generally move forward at this point, Will it move far enough? Only time will tell.

Reply
2 Replies
Lady
(@harriette)
Joined: 2 years ago

Illustrious Member     Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 4023

@sashabennett Re: John Cena

I don't know. He looks better than I do. Not sure where he found heels to fit.  😁

However, the reason that the subject of crossdressing even came up was because of some recent bad politics directed towards a male teacher who dressed one day for some undisclosed project. There are some really toxic people of influence out there that can do a lot of harm, intentionally or inadvertently. It doesn't matter why - people can get hurt, partly because of ignorance. That's why this topic interests me.

At the moment, yes, the focus of the week is on crossdressing. Before it was washrooms, or hormonal therapy. The only reason that they will forget about crossdressers is because some other group becomes their target. None of this helps people accept crossdressing more.

Reply
(@marleneroberts)
Joined: 5 years ago

Honorable Member     Allentown, Pennsylvania, United States of America
Posts: 575

@harriette  Spot on! Best, Marlene.

Reply
Posts: 1079
Managing Ambassador
(@melodeescarlet)
Famed Member     DC/Baltimore, Maryland, United States of America
Joined: 2 years ago

@harriette As with so many things, I feel the answer is multi-faceted.

Firstly, you have the generic issue of humans. While I believe humans tend to pride themselves on being quick to adapt, I feel the reality is quite the opposite. As I've noted in previous comments, in general people like things to remain the same. Living in a world that is very nearly the same as you grew up in - mostly being a time where you felt like, "OK...I got this" - is very comforting. Things make sense and you're relevant. When things start changing and middle aged (or more) people have to start adjusting, they start to feel adrift and disconnected. This is unfortunate, because the rate of change is happening ever faster. I try to keep my mind open to this as I reach my mid-50s. So, item 1 - humans are really averse to societal change.

Secondly, we have the specific issue of men presenting themselves in a feminine way. Naturally we look at the other side of the coin and say, "But women get to wear whatever they want!" And this is kind of true, but as some have noted, this was not some switch that was flipped. This was a battle women openly fought for, and some paid the price for that battle, and it still took the better part of a century. However, I feel there's more to it than that.

Women took men's attire (pants, suits, etc) and made them feminine. Most women don't just go buy men's clothes, they buy a women's version of "men's clothes". What we are talking about is not the same thing. Yes, of course there are unisex items - sweat pants, hoodies, etc. but those have grown to be just that - things we consider to be neither men's nor women's clothing. However, I do not wear some masculine or even neutral version of a dress. I am dressing to appear feminine. So this point of women wearing men's clothes is not exactly apples to apples, IMO.

Part 2a here is that, like it or not, the world is still a man's domain. Look at nearly every governing body or ruler in the world - men. And you all know from your years of 10 to probably 30, what is it that men go out of their way to take other men down a peg for? Being weak, and I would argue that weakness almost always takes the form of being gay or girly (because men 🙄 ). This is just how the male human animal operates in the world. Yes, it's all about insecurity and not wanting to be the omega wolf, as it were and it seems outdated and foolish, but it's also tens of thousands of years of evolution burned into our brains and as noted above, societal change - yeah, not our strong suit.

Which leads us to the real big final issue: the insecure men of the world cannot abide other men appearing as women for fear that they might find them attractive. "What if I find this person 'hot'? That makes me gay because it's a man!"  - and being or appearing to be gay (weak) is to be avoided at all costs. Which is, of course, a bit foolish. If you're a man and you find a person that's presenting themselves in a very feminine way to be sexually attractive, that categorically identifies you as straight, but despite our name (homo sapiens = "wise man") I feel few of us stop to think the obvious next thought. And so these men seek to stomp out this thing that might cause them to have some deep, introspective review of themselves.

And so here we are. 🙂

Reply
6 Replies
Lady
(@sashabennett)
Joined: 1 year ago

Noble Member     Wick, Caithness, United Kingdom
Posts: 804

@melodeescarlet I had thought about the insecurity aspect myself but couldn't find a way of putting it into words accurately. You have managed that very nicely so thank you for managing that for me.

Reply
Managing Ambassador
(@melodeescarlet)
Joined: 2 years ago

Famed Member     DC/Baltimore, Maryland, United States of America
Posts: 1079

@sashabennett You're welcome! It's my belief that human insecurity is the cause for pretty much all the bad things about us. You don't see dogs going around like, "Does this leash make me look fat?" 🤔  We're the only animals capable of this level of thought. It certainly has its upsides when used carefully, but when allowed to run wild, bad things can happen. 😑

Reply
Lady
(@sashabennett)
Joined: 1 year ago

Noble Member     Wick, Caithness, United Kingdom
Posts: 804

@melodeescarlet sad but true

Reply
Lady
(@harriette)
Joined: 2 years ago

Illustrious Member     Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 4023

@melodeescarlet There has to be more than one factor to why men crossdress based on the different types or styles of us doing that. The ages when we start, the amount of female emulation that we learn and employ, the different goals that we have.

I like your suggestion of male weakness. It is my argument that the human male is already starting off as being weak because of the way most males dress. In nature, it is mostly the male that stands out by being bigger (pigeons), stronger (bulls), better looking (peacocks). There are a few exceptions in some spiders, the praying mantis, a few primates, elephants, and orca whales. Human males are not swank, even if they try to have a trimmed beard, and very few wear a smart looking suit (Brian Tyler Cohen being an exception), which seems to be our only power move. Human males generally don't wear clothes that make them stand out, draw attention. Their dominance comes from physical power and size that goes along with it.

I have heard the idea about insecure men feeling threatened by male femininity. It sure helps to explain why they would put up resistance to crossdressing. What percentage of men are insecure? It sounds like a lot are.

Reply
Ambassador
(@alexina)
Joined: 1 year ago

Illustrious Member     Fife, United Kingdom
Posts: 2212

@melodeescarlet 

And that's why I say that we are courageous in accepting and exploring our feminity. 

Reply
Guest
(@Anonymous 94264)
Joined: 1 year ago

Estimable Member
Posts: 102

@melodeescarlet Oh My Gosh! Melodee! The best insight EVER!!!

Who are you?!?

Reply
Posts: 1079
Managing Ambassador
(@melodeescarlet)
Famed Member     DC/Baltimore, Maryland, United States of America
Joined: 2 years ago

Posted by: @harriette

What percentage of men are insecure?

All of them, naturally. Of course, the same goes for the women. To different degrees, to be sure, but insecurity is this sense is solely a human trait. "I'm worried about how others will perceive me and what that will mean for my future in the group/tribe."

Every group in this discussion:

  • The CD/TG people are uncertain of how their appearance and/or change will be taken by the people they know as well as all the people they don't.
  • The non-CD/TG people are uncertain on what the presence of the CD/TG people will affect them and what it may or may not make them have to reconsider about themselves.

Now, anyone who is...I'll say 'present' - meaning someone who's done some introspection before, someone who's had a few meaningful and honest conversations about themselves with themselves - will have a much easier time dealing with those insecurities. But, like all things this takes practice and many of us are too scared to have those conversations....because we're insecure. It's an ugly loop. 😉

Reply
2 Replies
Lady
(@harriette)
Joined: 2 years ago

Illustrious Member     Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 4023

@melodeescarlet Hmmm, I never thought of it that way.

Some animals have to be insecure, too, though. Troops or herds that are led by a dominant male, such as mountain sheep, can challenge their leader. It takes a lot of confidence (or foolishness) to go up against the "big guy". The weaker ones, as such, won't do it.

Reply
Managing Ambassador
(@melodeescarlet)
Joined: 2 years ago

Famed Member     DC/Baltimore, Maryland, United States of America
Posts: 1079

@harriette I think that the insecurity I'm discussing is one of a more in depth nature. One which the human brain, with its awesome capabilities, can expend extra time and energy on - for better or for worse.

As noted above, I don't think any mountain goat is consciously worried that their horns aren't big enough or that their coat looks a bit mangey today. They react to things, they don't stop and consider them as they don't have that ability.

Humans have both the time and the ability to consider that they feel too tall/short/thin/fat/hairy/hairless/etc. and then stew on how these perceived things may affect their place in "the group". Worse still, that these thoughts may prevent them from doing (or compel them to do) something that they wouldn't have otherwise. It's this type of behavior that I don't think you could find in any other animal.

Reply
Posts: 1742
Duchess
(@alison-anderson)
Noble Member     Middlesex county, New Jersey, United States of America
Joined: 6 years ago

Posted by: @harriette

Society says that if a man puts on a dress, then he must be thinking about sex, too.

That's just a way to say in polite company that it's a fetish. Even if some of us started off dressing because it was a fetish, very few people here will say they dress for sexual reasons.

Is every man who ties a towel around his waist when he comes out of the shower (i.e., makes the towel into a skirt) thinking about sex? How about wearing a bathrobe (wrap dress) or a kilt? Was Scrooge thinking about sex when he wore his "nightshirt" (nightgown)? How about boys who wear skirts to school to protest not being allowed to wear shorts in very hot weater? Or Friar Tuck (or anyone else who wears/wore a "robe" that is really a dress), or Roman chariot drivers, or ancient Egyptians? Everyone on the Flintstones? Does anyone remember Star Trek (The Original Series) episode "The Apple" where both men and women were wearing sarongs? Why can a guy wear a Hawaiian flowered shirt but other flowered shirts are women's wear only? During the 1600's and 1700's, men of nobility wore shirts with lacy plackets, and sometimes even trumpet sleeves.

What we're talking about is fashion and culture. The reason they can't articulate why it's wrong is because they're not used to seeing it, so when they do see it, it just "feels wrong" meaning it is different from what they expect. But when everyone was wearing dresses (be it robes or on the Flintstones), no one questions it.

If you want to wear women's clothes, go ahead and do so. You're going to get looks and questions from people, women will likely compliment you and men will likely shy away (search Mark Bryan in Germany). The only thing that is stopping you is your own fear of being perceived as an outsider.

Reply
1 Reply
(@marleneroberts)
Joined: 5 years ago

Honorable Member     Allentown, Pennsylvania, United States of America
Posts: 575

@alison-anderson  Well said/written! Best, Marlene.

Reply
Posts: 4023
Lady
Topic starter
(@harriette)
Illustrious Member     Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Joined: 2 years ago

Fear from outsiders is not what constrains my dressing. To me, I couldn't care less about them. It's my family that I have to consider first, too. It is what it is.

Walking past a bus stop, a few days ago, one bored woman standing there looked me from top to bottom finishing at my 2" heeled boots. People do notice. They may not say anything out loud, but you can hear the gears grinding in their heads.

Along with Friar Tuck, in your list, I would add Jesus and his buddies. Any picture that I ever saw of him has him in a robe.

 

Reply
Posts: 102
Guest
(@Anonymous 94264)
Estimable Member
Joined: 1 year ago

Let's see, this is an interesting topic to discuss but as in all topics related to the human and social nature of humanity, there will never be a great explanation that satisfies all points of view and answers all the questions on the topic, that is why the only thing What I'm going to say is wearing a masculine suit will never be as intense as wearing a dress Smile Smile Laugh Thumbs Up  

Reply
Posts: 3446
Hostess
(@ab123)
Illustrious Member     Surrey, United Kingdom
Joined: 5 years ago

I get the impression that the question is a general one and not directed to any specific group such as ours.

To me the fundamental point in Harriets post is an archaic attitude as said to me as a child, 'Boys don't wear girls clothes' and any query was met with,'because they can't'. The last bit is where it can't be specifically articulated. It's taboo, too complicated, Socially unacceptable,there are many reasons. In those days it was also seen as a perversion and had dark inferences. It just wasn't done by the ordinary folk in society and that is end of subject.

Could it be that the insecurity is about what others think about this, not what the individual thinks as the world they live in does not approve but actually they feel alone but many more actually think the way they do but there i stills that herd conformity. People love conformity and a norm so anything outside the norm is unsettling, therefore the herd is unsettled because this is not in the norm.  If the herd attitude changes then they most go along as others are going with it. Sometimes the herd knows something they do not approve of is going on but so long as it doesn't affect them then it's akin to the DADT we see here. 

We know as crossdressers it is perfectly okay to dress in womens clothes and crossdressers are better accepted, however there are those here who are concerned about what others will think, how it will effect their life but still not fundamentally wrong.

Time moves on as do attitudes as I can openly express myself now and be accepted, something I only dreamed of. 

The herd is moving forward.

 

 

Reply
1 Reply
Lady
(@harriette)
Joined: 2 years ago

Illustrious Member     Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 4023

@ab123 You are the first person that I ever saw use the word taboo regarding this subject. I think it fits pretty good. Taboos sure are difficult to eliminate.

While we have come a long way since Joan of Arc's day when she was purified by flame partly for wearing men's clothing, we still have a long journey ahead of us as males.

Reply
Posts: 45
Lady
(@sroyer)
Estimable Member     Ontario, Canada
Joined: 11 months ago

Hi Harriette,

I had to re-read your posting twice that got me thinking.  Like others said, what a load of crock. If every piece of woman's clothing is to be deemed a sexualization attempt then does that mean GGs are only thinking about s*x when they are dressed in a way (with the exception of clubwear).

As to cross dressing, I can only say that it feels right and natural to be in femme wear.  There's just something that just is not right about dressing in drab, lack of selection, style, color that restricts natural body movements that matches your inner spirit.

I've only had a few occasions where someone asked why I looked so tall, and I show them my ankle high boots with a 4" stiletto heel.  Their response is usually "You look good" or "You're brave to wear that - Good for you."  And they are sincere comments,  no snickering, no embrassment.  Just run of the mill CD to female conversation.

I've yet to hear anyone tell me that that's woman's clothes and is a sexual taboo no-no.

But if they did, I would say "...because they are mine" and "...I feel like it" smile with a wink and continue on my business picking out and trying out the female items that I like.

After all, they are my clothes and I'm wearing it as I like it.  It maybe sexual to you, but not to me.

Summer

p.s. Good topic and responses BTW, Harriette!

Reply
1 Reply
Lady
(@harriette)
Joined: 2 years ago

Illustrious Member     Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 4023

Posted by: @sroyer

If every piece of woman's clothing is to be deemed a sexualization attempt then does that mean GGs are only thinking about s*x when they are dressed in a way (with the exception of clubwear).

Depends on who is sexualizing the clothes, the wearer or the observer. Maybe the female or CD wants to sexualize them, for their own enjoyment or for others.

Exceptions are too limiting. Are not bare arms, plunging necklines, micro-minis, or bare backs below the waistline saying something?

 

Reply
Posts: 2172
 J J
Lady
(@jjandme)
Famed Member     California, United States of America
Joined: 5 years ago

I have not read all the response, but men can wear women's clothing and ut is proven here all the time. Now, if you want to discuss societies reaction to us, that is a dufferent matter. 

People tend to think that what ever the masses do is the "norm" and thise that deviate from what rhe masses do are deviants. That is just mass think and has no basis in logic or reality. Throughout history there have always been, and there will always be, some peoole who chuck the norm and just do what they want. If enough peoole say screw it and dress, then that becomes the norm, or at least accepted.

Reply
1 Reply
Lady
(@harriette)
Joined: 2 years ago

Illustrious Member     Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 4023

@jjandme I won't be the one who changes group think, so I will live within reasonable limits and push the boundaries as much as I dare.  I get my fair share of stares doing only that.

Reply
Posts: 15
Lady
(@figgy444)
Eminent Member     Thornton, Colorado, United States of America
Joined: 8 months ago

This is where I get really confused. The line between sexuality and gender expression literally sit on top of each other. I feel sexy in a cute skirt, shouldn't I?  Even when I walk past the mirror and don't like what I see it feels amazing and liberating. I still want to look good and be sexy. Is that a bad thing? I don't know exactly where I stand. So confused with where I am at.   

Reply
8 Replies
Lady
(@harriette)
Joined: 2 years ago

Illustrious Member     Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 4023

@figgy444 Exactly! But if you think that you are confused, what about the casual observers looking at you?

I have actually been pointed at and asked, "Are you a man or a girl?" Twice.

Reply
Guest
(@Anonymous 94264)
Joined: 1 year ago

Estimable Member
Posts: 102

@harriette 

I too on occasion  have been asked this same question, especially by very young children.

A while back in a PETCO store, I was standing in line waiting to pay for my purchase when a little girl about six years of age in line ahead of me with her parents looked at me and said, "Are you a boy or girl"?  I replied, "Yes."  The child had nothing else to say. 

The parents chastised the child, but I assured them I was in no way offended and appreciated the child's curiosity. 

Reply
Ambassador
(@alexina)
Joined: 1 year ago

Illustrious Member     Fife, United Kingdom
Posts: 2212

@catgurl 

"Are you a boy or girl"?  I replied, "Yes"

Laugh Cry

Reply
Lady
(@harriette)
Joined: 2 years ago

Illustrious Member     Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 4023

Posted by: @Anonymous 94264

@harriette 

The parents chastised the child, but I assured them I was in no way offended and appreciated the child's curiosity. 

I like that. Gentle for everyone.

 

Reply
Lady
(@figgy444)
Joined: 8 months ago

Eminent Member     Thornton, Colorado, United States of America
Posts: 15

@catgurl I love that you said yes 🙂 That made me smile. 

 

Reply
(@christineth)
Joined: 2 years ago

Noble Member     Brussels, Brabant, Belgium
Posts: 747

@harriette as you were asked “twice”, your answer should have been “I heard you the first time!”  Either that or “yes, I’m twice the girl and the man you’ll ever be”

Reply
Ambassador
(@alexina)
Joined: 1 year ago

Illustrious Member     Fife, United Kingdom
Posts: 2212

@christineth @Harriette

 
When I was in secondary school, we had an old teacher and he would always begin a reminiscence with, "When I was a little boy and girl....."
 
Allie x
Reply
Lady
(@harriette)
Joined: 2 years ago

Illustrious Member     Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 4023

@christineth Two different occasions and people. The first time that it happened, I was quick with a quip back. The second time, I just ignored her.

Reply

©[current-year] Crossdresser Heaven | Privacy Terms of Use | Link to usContact Vanessa | Advertise with Crossdresser Heaven

 
[kleo_social_icons]
Subscribe To Our Newsletter

Subscribe To Our Newsletter

Join our mailing list to receive the latest news and updates from Crossdresser Heaven.

You have Successfully Subscribed!