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Spirituality and crossdressing

27 Posts
15 Users
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Posts: 932
Lady
Topic starter
(@maureen76)
Noble Member     Bay Area, California, United States of America
Joined: 6 months ago

If you consider yourself religious or spiritual, is your cross dressing integrated into your spiritual life or is it separated from it? With myself, I think I went from it being separate and not acceptable to my spiritual life to it becoming more integrated in to it. To me the evidence of the existence of God is overwhelming, but then you have the problem of what type of God.  A pantheistic God (Hinduism and Buddhism) a Theistic God (monotheism) or the Deistic God of the Enlightenment? I am leaning towards a Generic God without all the unnecessary condemnations sadly too common in theism. Professor Maureen---LOL

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Baroness
(@maryjowny)
Joined: 9 years ago

Trusted Member     Buffalo, New York, United States of America
Posts: 38

@maureen76 , I will start off by saying I am a nondenominational Christian.  Deuteronomy 22:5 does trouble me somewhat.  But then again, there would seem to be at least some room for debate on that one.

  1. Some religious sects might point to this scripture and demand women wear either a skirt or dress, as pants would be..."too manly?"  But pretty much most of society doesn't think much of that.
  2. Fashion changes over time.  For example, men wore tights all the time centuries ago; now it would only be expected in contexts like ballet, a play set in those times, or a costume event (e.g., Halloween party) depicting a person from those times.
  3. A certain amount of leeway seems to be given to cosplayers.
  4. Some might say Jesus Himself wore robes, which are an awful lot like dresses.

So it would seem prima facie God's scripture would be dead set against the idea, but I'm not totally sure.  I suppose I will only know for certain on judgement day.

 

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Duchess
(@loneleycd)
Joined: 5 years ago

Famed Member     Roland, Iowa, United States of America
Posts: 2105

@maureen76 Maureen, I agree the evidence of GOD is overwhelming. Myself I am a converted Catholic, but still lean heavily protestant. 

When Covid lock down started and we had virtual online Mass I would get out of my feminine clothes and into male clothes. By the end of the lock down I quit changing my presentation. 

Moving forward a little over years ago I was dressing androgynous at my small Catholic Church, all woman's clothes but could pass as male. Now it has been just over one year that I have gone to my Church as Cassie AND have only fought tolerance or acceptance. I have not missed a Sunday Mass at my Church or another nearby church since Covid. So,yes this is very important to me. 

Cassie 

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Duchess Annual
(@emmat)
Joined: 8 months ago

Honorable Member     I don't do cities ;-), Powys, United Kingdom
Posts: 262

@maureen76 

Hi Maureen,

I'm not religious, maybe a bit taken by Buddhism, so there's no need to integrate anything. It's just me and society that needs to come to terms with each other. The only religion that I'm aware of that speaks positively of trans people is Pastafarianism.

(and, sorry, just for clarification. Buddhism is not a pantheistic religion - some would argue it's not even a religion since it doesn't have a supreme being to worship)

Emma x

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Lady
(@maureen76)
Joined: 6 months ago

Noble Member     Bay Area, California, United States of America
Posts: 932

@emmat Hi Emma---is that Rastafarianism? (not Pastafarianism -- although an interesting thing to contemplate---LOL) ---- I had no idea that Rastafarianism was positive towards trans people ---very cool---In Buddhism doesn't one seek enlightenment (nirvana) which I have heard can be described as merging your soul with the soul of the universe (the all god). I had thought that pantheism = all is god and god is all. If no all god in Buddhism, then what determines what your karma is and where you move on the wheel of reincarnation? Just curious.

Hugs Maureen

 

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Duchess Annual
(@emmat)
Joined: 8 months ago

Honorable Member     I don't do cities ;-), Powys, United Kingdom
Posts: 262

@maureen76 

I'm happy to talk via PM. I was just clarifying a point. Otherwise I try to stick to cdh rules and try not to get too deep into religious discussions in an open forum.

 

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(@lauren114)
Joined: 1 year ago

Noble Member     Delaware, United States of America
Posts: 1161

@maureen76 God made me and I am a woman.... it just took me some time to see it clearly.   I don't really follow any organized religion, but I do see there being something much larger than me out there which is God as I see it.  My God would want me to make the most of the life I have been given including living it as the gender I understand myself to be.

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Duchess
(@reallylauren)
Joined: 3 years ago

Noble Member     Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
Posts: 1209

@maureen76 I am an intersex person, which means I was born both.  In the original Hebrew text, that the Bible is based on, it says we are created in the image of God, notice the we...

We, man and woman, in the image of God. Which means God, or the Creator of all, is neither male or female, but both. So, being neither male or female but born both, I now look at myself as a perfect image of the creator.

Hugs,

Ms. Lauren M

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Posts: 1726
Duchess
(@alison-anderson)
Noble Member     Middlesex county, New Jersey, United States of America
Joined: 6 years ago

It's not a black and white for me. Essentially, I don't mix the two. But when I go to religious services, I'm always underdressed in panties, and sometimes in pantyhose or tights. In bad weather I may wear women's boots, and other times my shoes are women's androgynous flats.

When having services over zoom, I'm often wearing a skirt below camera. Sometimes I have my forms in too, hiding them either by camera angle or with the prayer book in front of me.

During the COVID lockdown, they had 3 options for holiday services. One was live outside in a tent, one was inside with sparse seating and masks, and one was live streaming the services. I was still concerned about going in person, so chose to do the (one-way) live stream. I was dressed en femme for that.

Last year at Keystone, the gala conflicted with the Jewish holiday of Purim. I chose to attend services that night. On Purim, we tend to dress in costume, and I went to services dressed up as Velma from Scooby Doo. I had checked beforehand about attending en femme, and it turns out the office manager was trans, and said they'd have no problem with me attending. This was the first time I attended a service in person en femme.

So while I tend to keep things separate, I also blur the lines a bit.

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6 Replies
Lady
(@maureen76)
Joined: 6 months ago

Noble Member     Bay Area, California, United States of America
Posts: 932

@alison-anderson Hi Allison. Are you part of a Christian Church or a Jewish Denomination? I got a little confused when you talked about Purim. Doesn't matter---just curious. If Christian, I'd be interested in denomination---might look in to them. You seem to have integrated those aspects of your life well.

Hugs Maureen

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Duchess
(@alison-anderson)
Joined: 6 years ago

Noble Member     Middlesex county, New Jersey, United States of America
Posts: 1726

@maureen76 Maureen, I'm Jewish. It's not that I've integrated my crossdressing as much as I don't feel I need to change if it is not visible, trying to stay dressed or partially dressed as long as possible. I'm prominent in my own congregation and so I'm not going to outwardly dress there.

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Lady
(@maureen76)
Joined: 6 months ago

Noble Member     Bay Area, California, United States of America
Posts: 932

@alison-anderson TY Alison --- the old "out of sight, out of mind" as far as your co congregants are concerned---that makes perfect sense---I don't know if you know the answer to the question "Is the Jewish view of the afterlife substantially different from that of Christians?" I've asked and looked it up on line but get a variety of answers

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Duchess
(@alison-anderson)
Joined: 6 years ago

Noble Member     Middlesex county, New Jersey, United States of America
Posts: 1726

@maureen76 To keep within site guidelines, we should discuss this in PM's.

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Managing Ambassador
(@ellyd22)
Joined: 2 years ago

Majestic Member     Norfolk, United Kingdom
Posts: 4923

@alison-anderson 

To keep within site guidelines, we should discuss this in PM's.

Thanks Alison 🙂

Site moderators always keep a close eye on threads which touch on religion, but so far this has been a polite, tolerant and interesting discussion.

Ellie x

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Baroness
(@maryjowny)
Joined: 9 years ago

Trusted Member     Buffalo, New York, United States of America
Posts: 38

@alison-anderson , I will just say, I didn't think much of it when I watched Sooby Doo for the first time as a kid, but later on in life I noticed she was often drawn in such a short skirt, and Daphne in such a short dress.  I have to wonder if you were likewise in a miniskirt for that.

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Posts: 1726
Duchess
(@alison-anderson)
Noble Member     Middlesex county, New Jersey, United States of America
Joined: 6 years ago

It was slightly above the knee. I also wore it for Halloween, and I have a couple of public photos of the outfit.

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Posts: 2072
 J J
Lady
(@jjandme)
Famed Member     California, United States of America
Joined: 5 years ago

I believe in one less god than Christians, so no conflict at all.

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Posts: 1995
Hostess
(@cdsue)
Famed Member     Delaware, United States of America
Joined: 5 years ago

I am a spiritual person who has a Higher Power to guide me. My crossdressing and sexuality are accepted by my Higher Power as they are part of what makes me who I am. In my vision of my Higher Power she is one of us. What matters is what is within me, my soul. It is not mine to judge but to accept others for who they are and to understand that they have a Higher Power of their own to help guide them on their journey thru life. Just as we seek acceptance for being who we are so should we accept others for who they are. There is no right or wrong in what we believe as it is an individual thing. I believe that the ills of the world  exist because we, as a people, can't accept others being different from us. If that weren't true then we would be able to dress any way we want without fear of ridicule. Maybe that is a bit simplistic, if we are lucky those feelings will change to more acceptance of our differences. After all it is our differences that make us who we are.

XOXO
Suzanne

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Lady
(@maureen76)
Joined: 6 months ago

Noble Member     Bay Area, California, United States of America
Posts: 932

@cdsue Well said Suzanne!!

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Posts: 1026
Duchess Annual
(@robertaf)
Noble Member     Louisiana, United States of America
Joined: 4 years ago

I am a born and raised Catholic, my beliefs are solid as can be. I don’t worry myself with opinions of others on what I should or shouldn’t be doing.
God knew who I was long before I did.

When I’m out, I go to Mass dressed and recieve Communion no different than I would in male mode. 

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Posts: 165
Lady
(@leslienix)
Reputable Member     Southport, Merseyside, United Kingdom
Joined: 6 months ago
atheist
Although I am atheist, I don’t just automatically hate religion or dismiss other people's faith.
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Posts: 932
Lady
Topic starter
(@maureen76)
Noble Member     Bay Area, California, United States of America
Joined: 6 months ago

When I started this thread, I had no idea that it might go against community standards. But in retrospect and with some thought, I should have known. Like the old adage says "Never discuss religion or politics. I am glad that those who have responded so far have kept it polite and civil. My major reason for posting was that I myself sometimes struggle with integrating my beliefs with my dressing and just wanted to hear from others on this subject---

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Posts: 3248
Hostess
(@ab123)
Illustrious Member     Surrey, United Kingdom
Joined: 4 years ago

It has also been educational too, I had to get my head around the link from Purim to Velma of Scoobie Doo.

Masquerading ties into the theme of hidden identity which runs through the Purim story...most apt Alsion!

 

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Posts: 502
Lady
(@raven188)
Prominent Member     Idaho, United States of America
Joined: 6 years ago

My thoughts:

1. I'm very religious. While I personally don't feel like there's anything wrong with crossdressing, I know most people in my religion would disagree, so that creates a bit of conflict. My worry is not about whether or not it's right or wrong, as much as what my responsibilities are regarding how my actions affect others. Paul in the New Testament talks about this in several places; explaining that while a thing itself may not be wrong as far as God is concerned, we have a responsibility to think about how our actions might affect another person who may be in a different place spiritually, or have a different level of understanding. So, while I personally think cross dressing is fine, others in my Church who disagree might be affected if they saw me dressed up. On the other hand, maybe they just need to mind their own business, but still, this is the real sticking point for me when it comes to religion and cross dressing.

2. I am Christian, the old testament does have one scripture that seems to forbid cross dressing, but the old testament also says you can't eat bacon, so . . . without a big long theological discussion, I find the argument that the Bible says cross dressing is bad, a bit problematic. There is actually an article on this website you can dig up from the archives that talks about this particular verse with some interesting details and background info that changes the way you might think about it.

3. While I feel like cross dressing is fine, when it comes to any kind of knowledge or point of view, I try to always keep open the possibility that my understanding may be incorrect or incomplete. So, while I feel like cross dressing is fine, I could be wrong.

4. I know the website says religious discussions are out of bounds, but I think in a thread like this where someone starts with the clear, open, and honest intent to discuss religion, such a discussion should be allowed. I understand how discussing religion might be a problem if someone, for example starts a thread about one thing, and another person tries to bring religion into it. With a discussion like this, everyone knows right up front what the intent is, so if they don't want to discuss religion, they can just ignore it. That's different than trying to talk about shoes (for example) and someone trying to start proselytizing in their responses. I think we could make a similar exception regarding politics. As long as the discussion is clearly labeled, then people can avoid topics that might cause controversy if they want.

5. Everyone in this thread has shown great respect and civility for each others' beliefs, and that's what I have come to expect from this community. Those of us who have deep commitments to our beliefs, want to give space and show respect for others with different views. Because I want my beliefs respected, I want to be respectful of others. Because I feel secure in my beliefs, I am not threatened by other belief systems. I enjoy learning about what others believe, and learning from them.

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Lady
(@maureen76)
Joined: 6 months ago

Noble Member     Bay Area, California, United States of America
Posts: 932

@raven188 Wow Sarah---that is a very deep, thoughtful, and heartfelt,response. I appreciate it. I am in a similar position. Most people in my particular denomination would not approve of cross dressing, but then there are other things I disagree on with them as well. Like you mentioned, not every verse (no eating bacon etc.) is meant to be taken literally and I guess I have a problem with those who do and believe in such things as a 7,000 year old earth etc.. As you pointed out, this is a difficult and nuanced problem to contemplate. I have to believe that God I try to follow has more important concerns than the clothes I choose to wear.

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Posts: 70
(@jenngirl76)
Estimable Member     Florida, United States of America
Joined: 3 years ago

I was born and raised Catholic as well. With that said, I believe that the tenets of Catholicism I was exposed to growing up were incompatible with how I viewed my participation in crossdressing, and that ended up having a big impact on how I looked at spirituality and religion in the early part of my life . On the one hand, I had feelings of exhilaration and joy when I first started to crossdress, but I also felt much internal conflict because of the sexual morality taught by the church.

So, because of the duality of my feelings and the strife it caused me, I decided  to keep the spiritual separate from my crossdressing and I did that for quite a long while.

However, in time and with some tough life experience, I came to understand there is a huge difference between religion and spirituality. I do not need religion to talk to God. 

It wasn't until I became much older(and perhaps wiser, however, the jury is still out on that one) that I came to realize that crossdressing was an integral part of who I am, spiritually, mentally, and emotionally, and I eventually integrated those aspects, especially the spiritual, into my life. We should not only strive to accept the differences of others, we should also strive to accept the differences within ourselves, and those endeavors are a spiritual attribute of the divine that we should all attempt to embrace.     

So for me, at this point, I have a peaceful balance between the two and I am grateful to God for that.

I really enjoyed reading the responses on this thread, thank you to all!!

XO,

 

Jennifer

 

 

 

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Lady
(@maureen76)
Joined: 6 months ago

Noble Member     Bay Area, California, United States of America
Posts: 932

@jenngirl76 Hi Jennifer---I was raised Catholic also and understand some of your experiences---for different reasons I later moved on to a Protestant denomination---but am feeling more and more drawn back to Catholicism---they now seem more tolerant than Protestants to me. Regardless, you are absolutely right about the difference between religion and spirituality---- I have always had a spiritual connection with God to whom I pray to and talk to multiple times a day --- on the other hand I have had multiple problems with religious dogma that some people wear like a straight jacket---sadly. Thanks, for your very thoughtful insight---Hugs Maureen

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