Welcome to Crossdresser Heaven, a safe and welcoming place for everyone in the crossdresser community.
Join Crossdresser Heaven today to participate in the forums.
The TG world seems to focus unduly on bathrooms. States sometimes legislate the issue, always with great controversy. Legislation often focuses on the right of a person to use the restroom for the sex with which they "identify." I have long wondered why that is logical. After all, how could one know how another "identifies"? Wouldn't it make more sense to base rights on something more visible, such as presentation? Or perhaps biological sex would be more appropriate, if one is concerned about seeing genitals which are inappropriate for the chosen restroom.
My daughter, very liberal-minded, invited me to go to Harbin Hot Springs with her, only adding as we were about to head off that bathing suits were optional and she had no bathing suit. That was a lot to take in for me, but I had promised her I'd spend time doing whatever she chose as long as it was neither unhealthy nor illegal. She took full advantage of that privilege, which opened me up in turn to shed my own baggage and share with her that I was a crossdresser. So here we were, sharing a co-ed locker room and pools... all perfectly normal and acceptable in her world, but as yet unsettling to me, for reasons I had trouble understanding. Since then, we have been in public together many times at many events. She even took me bra shopping once in hopes of making me more presentable.
Imagine my surprise, when visiting her last week, in hearing that she felt I should not enter a woman's restroom when dressed en femme because it is disrespectful of women. Apparently, times are changing or my hippie is coming of age. It caused me to ponder the situation. I have always been as discreet as possible when entering a women's restroom, trying to avoid it if it were busy, getting in and out quickly without striking up conversation, not revealing anything to give me away as a man, and never being addressed or seen as such as far as I know. But my daughter would differ, asserting that anyone would know I was a man, what I do is "cosplay," so I should use the men's room even if dressed en femme. I think she knows enough to realize that the risk of assault from a crossdresser is almost nil... the chance of assault would be greater and I would be the likely victim, if I used the men's room... so that is not her concern.
So I am rethinking the situation. Should a crossdresser (i.e., someone who has a strong feminine side and desire to present as a woman but who is not transitioned, transitioning, intending to transition, or believes she truly IS a woman), when dressed en femme, use the women's room if she so chooses?
If so, is it because she internally identifies as a woman, presents (convincingly?) as a woman or both? Should women's restrooms be restricted to biological women? Should ANYONE have a right to use whatever restroom they wish, regardless of how they present or identify?
My poll questions attempt to cover all possibilities of presentation, identity, and biology.
I am guessing that if this same question were posed on the transgender side of this site, the results may differ. I may follow this with a similar poll directed to that audience.
@rhondalee It's become easier to choose these days. Many places have either a "Family" restroom aside from the Male/Female choices or the Male/Female restrooms are single use so there is never anyone else in there.
It's unfortunate that we have to pay such close attention to where these are just to avoid encounters, but things are getting easier.
@rhondalee OMG, the replies to this one are about what I figured. Of course I recalled an incident that happened to me.
In my job, in DRAB of course, I used to stop at a salon whose restrooms I always used after a long drive. Located outside the establishment, they were shared by several other businesses in the building. I’d go in and grab the men’s room key first thing every time.
One day I arrive and the key’s not hanging there by the door. The owner tells me - someone’s using it, here, use this one, they’re all the same now anyway. Handing me a key and with restrooms regularly in the news in California, I think: “Oh, I guess it’s okay for men to use the ladies room and vice versa now. They must have passed some new law.”
Well, sure enough the key unlocked the women’s restroom. There were two stalls, one occupied. I took the empty one, got rid of some coffee and was washing my hands when a lady came out of the other stall. She didn’t even bat an eye. I stepped aside, dried my hands while she started washing hers. I remember thinking, boy, women certainly seem to be pretty comfortable with this already. Then I went back in the salon to do business.
I had been there about 10 minutes when the owner takes me aside and says “What the hell were you doing?” I said what? She says “You used the ladies restroom???” I replied - You gave me the key and said to! She says no I didn’t, I gave you the extra key we have for the men’s room! The locks are the same on both restrooms! Okay…uh, OOPS! (Made for a funny story to tell though🤣)
Women definitely don’t like it when men are in their restrooms. Can’t say I blame them. That said, in a public restroom that I use frequently where I now live, were a crossdresser to use either one, they would be risking bodily harm. There is no way there wouldn’t be some type of incident.
I think restroom usage when dressed comes down to using common sense, and the environment that you’re in, as some others have alluded to.
GP
@rhondalee When presenting as a woman, I use the women's bathroom. I find that the extent and depth of interactions in restrooms don't generally present the opportunity for my nature to be revealed. Of course, there are exceptions, and I avoid these to preclude potential conflicts. I cases like these, I use family restrooms where possible. In general though, I don't find many situations where possible conflicts like this would exist. Maybe it is the general nature of the places I tend to go.
@rhondalee Before entering a women's restroom in any state, province, or country, you need to be aware of the laws regarding this very situation, if for no other reason than to avoid breaking the law(s) and face being arrested, incarcerated, and going to court. After all that, you have to consider your safety. Is it risky to use a men's restroom en femme? Sure, but the level of risk is going to be different at different places and times of day or night. Using the women's restroom at a hospital during the day for example should be fairly safe but not guaranteed. However, using the ladies restroom at a bar with a bad reputation for crime on a Friday night is much more risky. In other words, just use common sense and listen to your gut. I have never used a restroom when I've been out as Jill. To avoid legal and safety issues, I use my own restroom before I leave or when I get home. Whatever any of us do, we need to be cognizant that what we do could reflect poorly on our community as a whole, and none of us want that I'm sure. Please be safe ladies.
Affectionately, Jill
I have never used a restroom when I've been out as Jill. To avoid legal and safety issues, I use my own restroom before I leave or when I get home.
That's fine if you can do it, but not everyone has the same constitution.
Most of the time I try to empty myself before leaving home, too, for obvious reasons, but I have a condition that may unexpectedly change things for me.
I have 4 occasions seen a female in the men's room. On several other occasions have seen women departing a mens room. As most of us know womens rooms in crowded places are usually very busy and some ladies just cannot wait. No man in his right mind would harm a woman in a men's room. At least not when more than 1 man is in there.
I'm not saying anyone should or should not use either. Just that women use men's from time to time
@trisha283 Thanks for your insight, Trisha!
I hadn't seen this before, even thought about it this way. It's logical, too.
When I'm out en femme it is hard to stroll into the ladies room. Even harder to go to the men's. But I keep that thought in mind if I have to. Mostly I just search for a single use and go in there
@rhondalee in Australia we have unisex restrooms and so the choice is clear as to where a crossdresser would go. However l can see the dilemma where there are only male and female restrooms, quite a dilemma indeed
@rhondalee - very sensitive topic. I use the men's changing rooms when shopping for girls' clothes. I'm a man. I don't believe I have a right to impose myself on women in private spaces. Also, I don't think men should bother me if I'm in a dress in a men's changing room. They've no right to. I'd apply the same rule to loos/rest rooms. Much more handy if there is a disabled loo or the loos are gender neutral though.
If I may say so I do not really agree with the premise of your poll. I think it is about situation, circumstances and risk. There is a risk either way to a MtF presenting person, risk of attack in a male space, risk of being called out and harassed in a female space. One should really act in accordance with the balance of risk.
I know we shouldn't have to but the media have done a good job of presenting AMAB females as threats to women in women's spaces and I don't think we have a universal right to put our needs above those of AFAB people. We need to win the argument first.
To repeat, we should not have to do this, we should not be at risk.
@butteryeffect I appreciate your common sense reply to this question Cathy. It doesn’t matter what the laws are or what anyone thinks their “rights” may be. Depending on where you are, weigh the risks before you choose your restroom if you’re out and about dressed up. Are you blending in or standing out? Better yet, don’t put yourself in that position in the first place.
In today’s viral world you just might find yourself “in the news”.
GP
When I go out en femme, I try to go places that have gender neutral bathrooms, so it is not an issue. However a few months ago, I had an unusual bathroom experience as I went to a place that had a gender neutral bathroom that could take multiple people and I found that awkward to be in a bathroom with women as a male(was with my wife at a summer theater show). As for all the other gender neutral bathrooms I have been in, have only been for 1 person. I have gone out a few times presenting as female and have had to use ladies room on one of those outings and did that as quickly and low key as I could.
I don't need to overthink this. If I'm presenting as female, I'm using the women's restroom. That's never been a problem. Even if something were to happen, it's highly unlikely to be a threat to my safety. Using the men's restroom could easily result in a trip to the hospital, or worse. I see personal safety as the primary driver in public restroom use. From that perspective, the women's room wins every time.
/EA
I have not voted on this issue as I find it very difficult to decide. I completely understand the stance that some/many biological women take - it is a safe place for them to do what needs to be done (which is of course more than just going to the toilet). And although most crossdressers and transgender people would not hurt or show any disrespect to genetic ladies, there will almost inevitably be some who will exploit the situation for their own selfish, nasty, unscrupulous, immoral, criminal(?) ends. And that needs to be avoided at all costs.
Of course if I was presenting as a woman, I would prefer to use the ladies facilities. But it is not, and indeed should not be, my choice!
So I think when presenting as a women we should seek out those places that have explicitly unisex facilities and where genetic women select this as acceptable to them. But having said that, I would never advocate that we insist that unisex facilities to be provided everywhere.
When presenting as a female, I use the ladies room. The controversy surrounding this is ridiculous and is generated by those who wish to minimize us because of our gender expression. The fact that it is so politicized in the face of all the other issues we as a society are faced with is absolutely disgusting.
This is the hot trans topic in the UK at the moment and has been fuelled by some legislators trying to change the law and processes by which people can legally change their sex. This of course applies to both sexes but for the sake of simplicity I'll confine my comments to the MTF situation. In the UK currently, if a man wants to legally become a woman, he has to apply for a Gender Reassignment Certificate (GRC) and demonstrate that he has lived as a woman for two years and received a psychiatric report attesting to his dysphoria. Once the man has a GRC, he is legally a woman and is entitled to all the legal protections that that "protected characteristic" provides which includes the right not to be discriminated against on the basis of their sex. A man does not need to have undergone any medical interventions such as hormone treatment or surgery to gain a GRC. So under current UK legislation, a woman can have a penis. Also, to make life even more complicated, being transgender is a protected characteristic so under UK anti-discrimination law it was always assumed that a transgender woman could not be excluded from a space reserved for women because legally they were women. Generally until recently CD's in the UK benefited from all this, although not legally women, and were mostly allowed to use women's spaces including restrooms and changing rooms as long as they presented as a women. In fact a lot of businesses had specific policies which accepted this practice. I do not know of any cases of a cis woman being attacked by a self-identifying trans woman in any woman's space with one major exception and that is in prisons (more below).
The crap really hit the fan when some liberally minded politicians (mostly women) wanted to change the law to make the process of changing sex much easier -- instead of taking two years it would be reduced to six months and would not require a psychiatric assessment. Obviously this possible law change was welcomed by transgender activists but a number of feminist activists expressed reservations. This new process generally became known as"self identification" and some crafty male criminals (including violent sex offenders) saw it as an opportunity to do their time in the much more comfortable environment of a women's prison. So on being sentenced, they immediately announced that they now self-identified as a woman and wanted to be transferred to a woman's prison. Inevitably some of these men than went on to commit acts of sexual aggression, including rape, against women.
Understandably, all this just got the feminist activists, many of whom were lesbians, highly agitated. At the same time, the major gender reassignment clinic in the UK, the Tavistock, came under attack for prescribing puberty blockers to minors without their parents consent and eventually the public furore caused the medical authorities to close the clinic.
The result of all this is that the situation for CD's in the UK when it comes to using ladies restrooms is in limbo. The pragmatic stance taken by most businesses and people up until recently still seems to hold and I don't know of any CD's being told to leave a restroom by cis women but there may be cases. Until more unisex toilets become available I will continue to use women's restrooms when if there is no unisex alternative. I tend to use coffee shop restrooms which at least in the UK are separate cubicles with a wc and sink. I can understand both sexes being a bit reluctant to use genuine unisex restrooms where men and women co-mingle so the solution seems to be individual cubicle type arrangements with their own entrances. I know women hate men using the same toilet as them but I think they may need to get used to messy toilets if they want a genuine level playing field for everyone (including CD's) who need to use the loo when they are out.
Veronica
As you present, so should be the restroom you may use. Easy.
Lets make it simple and meaning NO disrepect,if you present as female,use the ladies room.Simple and easy,no discussions needed.Use the ladies room,but PLEASE respect any female using the room with you.
Lets make it simple and meaning NO disrepect,if you present as female,use the ladies room.Simple and easy,no discussions needed.Use the ladies room,but PLEASE respect any female using the room with you.
Agreed!
At the end of the day I agree at least if you present as female and are fully transitioned. Then use the women's restroom. It's safer for you. But that's just some of my wisdom. Also my vote was the 1 scenario that makes sense.
I always use the ladies room or a gender neutral room and have never had a problem. Just go in, quickly do your business and quickly get out without lingering or speaking. Emily is right, using the men's room is inviting all sorts of trouble.
Likewise as others i try to avoid using a restroom, or use single occupancy lady rooms. Recently this state passed a law requiring one to use the bathroom of the gender listed on the original birth certificate. Soooo, i don't know what the correct answer is anymore. I know i am not a threat to any lady or child i would encounter in a ladies room. I also know it is risky to use mens room while en femme. Just not sure what to do.
Normally, which bathroom to use is not a focus for the trans community. However, conservatives have forced the issue, and in turn, we are obliged to think about it and react to it. Some years ago the city of Charlotte, North Carolina decided to create a statute that allowed trans people to use the restroom associated with their gender identification. That’s what set off the fire storm. Up to that point, in the US, there had been NO INCIDENTS of trans people doing anything untoward in restrooms. There were already laws against ANYONE doing ANYTHING untoward, so the statutes were not needed, save for a way to throw red meat to the faithful.
Further, anyone who says that we “groom” is talking BS. If you could, then conversion therapy would work. You could Undo something that was Done, but conversion therapy doesn’t work. How we are is innate.
As a trans woman, having successfully lived as a woman for almost two years, and recently informed I am an intersex female, I've never encountered any issue using a ladies restroom, I can't see that changing.
What are they going to do? Have staff at the entrance asking for proof? My ID has a picture of a lady named Lauren along with an 'F' in the box marked 'sex'.
I will add that I speak in a feminine voice, often, when I enter, if another woman is present, I'll smile and say hello, or good morning, or something similar. That has always been met with a thank you and a smile in return. I can't emphasize the importance of trying to learn your female voice.
Hugs girls,
Ms. Lauren M
I’ve gone out a few times enfemme. I have also used the ladies room a few times. I did get a serious look from a woman once when leaving the ladies room. It’s kinda touchy.
