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    • #62554
      Seleena
      Lady

      When we come out to someone, it’s not possible for them to ‘unhear’ what we tell them .. ever .. no matter how much they hurt.

      Coming out, whether to a spouse, family, friends or an employer is a huge step.  And responsible trans folk, especially those who are on the road to transition, don’t need encouragement in taking those steps.

      Yet some who might not be serious about transition, hear  the congrats and encouragement, could be influenced to do something life-changing.

      In the chatroom here at CDH, we have many, including a moderator or two, who are quick to offer suggestions to “come out” and “be ur true self” without really knowing anything about the person receiving their advice.

      Does anyone else find it ironic that we’re not allowed to chat about sex, religion or politics yet we’re allowed to offer life-changing advice and suggestions to girls we don’t know and who are often feeling very vulnerable?

    • #62556
      Anonymous

      Seleena, you are spot on. Everyone must make their own call on whether to come out or not. As you say, it’s an irreversible step. By all means, we can offer encouragement to those who are thinking about coming out, but it needs to be encouragement for the person to critically weigh the pros and cons.

      Some, like I did, reach a point in their lives where they feel they have to come out, perhaps as an alternative to self-harm but just because some individuals come out doesn’t mean it’s right for everyone.

      There is certainly greater acceptance in society than there was, say twenty years ago however, as we’ve seen with the transgender/military debate in the US and the same-sex marriage debate here in Australia, bigotry and hatred still exists.

      We should offer encouragement but we must also temper that with the need for the individual to decide what is best for their situation. If remaining closeted is the outcome then the rest of us should accept that, but let the person know that such a situation is no sort of failure, nor is it something to be ashamed of. We can only do what we can do and what feels right for ourselves.

      I’ve heard it said, even here at CDH, that if a person isn’t pursuing transition then they are not really transgender. The same goes for insisting that another member ‘must’ come out. The last thing we need is divisive statements that segregate us from each other.

      • #62616
        Seleena
        Lady

        Thank you for your always insightful comments, Jane.

        Though we’re probably hoping for the same end result, I struggle with how you’ve used the word ‘encouragement’ a few times but  haven’t used “caution” once.

        I fear that the encouragement you offer amounts to little more than peer pressure to someone struggling, no matter how tempered it is with “you should decide for yourself”. Because, so often, we tell people how cool we are for coming out, yet neglect to tell them about the negative.

        Would it not be wisest and fairest to just offer “please be careful” as our only advice, especially if in a position of authority at CDH?

        Maybe I worry too much but every single tragic end to a TG quest for authenticity was because of regret … the inability to undo.

        And lastly, I’m not allowed to mention my very legal sport/hobby in the chat room here because it might offend someone.  Yet it’s okay to be casual about discussions and decisions that can cause real pain, alter life paths and worse.

        I guess I just don’t understand.

    • #62568
      Anonymous

      Thanks Selena. I think you bring up some valid points. Many of us are vulnerable and easily influenced. And once the geni is out of the bottle we can not put it back.

    • #62575
      Stephanie Flowers
      Ambassador

      Yes absolutely caution to the wind. This being a very important subject and every  situation must be viewed differently. Not knowing a persons personal situation advise should be given with good intentions by not force upon . I do agree not to say it’s OK and just do it, it work for me but advice like that could hurt in many ways even though your intentions were honerable. Never push your thoughts  and feelings to anyone. Make sure you emphasize that these are my thoughts and don’t be pressured to follow through. We are here to help but help is somethings blinded by reality. 🌹

      • #62617
        Seleena
        Lady

        I totally agree Stephanie.  We call it being supportive yet suggesting caution is considered being negative.

    • #62594

      Very important point Seleena!!!

      I sometimes make it sound like it was a breeze coming out to my wife, which it was not. She did almost leave me. However, the more important point is that at the time she was actually a low risk for the other parts of my life. First, it was before we were married (so no risk of divorce). Also, it was early enough in our relationship that she did not know my family back home in another state (remember that people talk, especially if they are not that accepting). And finally, I had a good feel about the type of person was/is, kind of artisy fairly liberal and pretty open about other people being able to live there own lives.

      Of course, I see this all in retrospect. At the time, I don’t think I thought about any of this – really just a 24 year old bumbling through life.

      • #62618
        Seleena
        Lady

        Thanks for being so honest Julie!!

        Everyone makes it “sound like a breeze when it’s really not”.

        Your last paragraph is priceless.  In retrospect, we understand lots. So doesn’t it make sense that those of us with a retrospective understanding come forward to share it?  I already know your answer to that.  *hugs*

    • #62607

      Selena,

      Excellent  points. I had began to feel the same way myself.  Also there can be an encouragement to  dress more daringly  than one might otherwise have done so without visiting the site (possibly ). Thanks for bringing this up.

      Masie

    • #62619
      Seleena
      Lady

      I don’t mean to get political or divisive but the other thing that comes to mind is liability, both legal and moral, for our words of “encouragement”.

      In a US court (Florida v Michelle Carter), a woman was found criminally guilty for encouraging her boyfriend to do something that ended his life. While this is an extreme situation, I’m bringing it up in hopes that we can all  remember that we ~are~ responsible for our words. And if you’re a chat room moderator, even more so.

      Can you tell that I’ve been to a couple funerals that didn’t have to happen?  Please never discount the power of peer pressure!

      And thank you for helping me discuss this here. Discussion is good no matter how we see this.

      • #62626
        Seleena
        Lady

        oops .. Massachusetts v Carter .. not Florida

    • #62620
      Anonymous

      I have wanted to tell my wife for about 6 months now. And it was definitely encouragement and peer pressure that gave me courage/motivation to come to my wife. I am very glad I did. She was “shocked”. Well after 32 years of marriage I can understand. We have not discussed it since. There is no tension, but I want to continue dialogue. But I careful. I really the CDH and the friendships I building with you girls. Love Always Michelle

      • #62622
        Seleena
        Lady

        Michelle, wouldn’t it be fabulous if those who’ve done this could offer a “best practices” handbook on things to consider to increase chances for a good outcome? (I know … a handbook is silly but you get the idea .. lol)

        Instead of advice on whether to come out or not, advice on how to make it work once the decision has been made personally?

        • #62627
          Anonymous

          Some guidelines would help.
          Actually I have gotten great advice from Cudcakes Love. She is am SO to one of us. Her SO is a member here. She told me make sure I told my wife how much I love her. And to provide my with lots of assurance. And take it slow. Don’t rush it.

          • #62628
            Seleena
            Lady

            Thanks Michelle!  It sounds simple and intuitive but it’s not. Most of us prepare for battle before coming out to a spouse but love and assurance works sooo much better.  Thank you again for sharing.

    • #62637
      Anonymous

      [quote quote=62616]
      Though we’re probably hoping for the same end result, I struggle with how you’ve used the word ‘encouragement’ a few times but haven’t used “caution” once.

      I fear that the encouragement you offer amounts to little more than peer pressure to someone struggling, no matter how tempered it is with “you should decide for yourself”.

      [/quote]

      Seleena, I agree that encouragement must be tempered with caution. When I say encouragement, for me it means a couple of things. Firstly it’s about helping the individual to try to realise that it’s okay to accept who they are and to do so with lesser feeling of guilt and shame, encouragement that they can overcome some of those feelings. Secondly, I try to let people know that life for a transgender person in ‘society’ isn’t all doom and gloom, that if it’s what they really want, coming out can be achieved.

      For all the years that I was closeted I wished that ‘the world’ would understand and that I could dress as I was doing in secret in a more open way, but with the isolation I imposed upon myself, I was certain that it could never be. It wasn’t until about twenty years ago, when I discovered the internet, that I came to realise that I wasn’t just one of a few sick sinners (as a church minister once described, when I was about ten, those such as I). That’s when I discovered that not only were there thousands like me but that some of them had come out of the closet. It gave me hope.

      Of course, hope also brought pain as I struggled with the whole thing but it was help from a couple of very special people on-line that enabled me to overcome and deal with my fears and shame. I know there are some who might think that, by relating my ‘success stories’, I’m actually throwing sand in the face of those who are not yet out. That is never my intention. I have dressed fully, with the greatest intentions, only to discover that I can’t work up what I need to even leave my own home. I have experienced that rush of fear and horror when someone has come home unexpectedly, though thankfully I was never compromised. Even when I did finally venture out to meet others at a support group meeting, I still found myself standing at the door of a hotel, fully dressed, trying to work up the courage to open the damned thing and step out.

      I would not be where I am today had it not been for those who showed me that it could be done. I would not be here at all today had it not been for the acceptance, love and support I received. Everyone must decide their own path and, as you rightly mention, caution must be exercised, as it should be for any new experience. Horror stories are not yet a large part of my experience but I am not so naive as to believe that they never will be.

      There is no single ‘right path’ for everyone but I also believe that no-one needs to follow their path alone. Yes, I’ve told a couple of people to “just do it” but those were people I determined were constantly talking about coming out, making it sound like it was the most important thing in their life yet also making it obvious that they had no intention of doing so. In Australia we have an expression – ‘pee or get off the pot’ – and it essentially means either do what you are talking about doing or walk away; put up or shut up. I don’t have a lot of time for people who indulge their fantasy world at the expense of others who are struggling to cope with the real world.

      Like everyone else here, I am but one voice and everything I say should be taken with a grain or two of salt. It’s been a few months since I held any sort of power or authority on CDH so my voice carries no more weight than anyone else’s.

      Jane

      (As for the ‘handbook’, there are some excellent articles, from a variety of authors, on things that should be remembered after one does come out. I humbly offer my ‘It’s Not All Sunshine and Lollipops’ article, which was very well received by some of the SOs in the Wives and SOs Group.)

    • #62640
      Rhonda Roe…
      Managing Ambassador

      Right On Seleena……That is all

    • #62658

      Hi Seleena!  My, my, but you have kicked off an interesting topic. I only give advice, encouragement or mostly suggestions based on my personal experiences in life and only when asked for or eluded to. Being a world traveler and having experiences with many, many other peoples around the world, I found that basically most countries have the same issues as we do. I also believe that when one asks a question…they need a straightforward  reply. If said question is phrased as a request for advice…then too many chefs get involved in the soup so to speak and it gets tough to sort the wheat from the chaff as it were.

      In the end….a questionee must sort out all the info they have received and make a decision which to act upon or modify to meet their own situation. When I get asked a question or advice, I make a decision on the initial inquiry as to if there is enough info to base a useful reply upon. If not….I privately ask the person several questions on private line so as I may get a better understanding of their particular situation, then go from there.  In the end it is the direct responsibility of the questionee to apply the most appropriate course of action to the S/O. I have studied psychology extensively, and it is a huge responsibility to tell others how to run part of their lives.  Anyway, I for one am going to follow your topic to see what others have to say on the topic. I hope to gain more info from others on a fascinating subject.

      Arnold Swatzenegger once said…………Follow the 3 rules of crisis management.   1…Assess the situation.   2.    Weigh all the options.  3. Act upon the most appropriate.

      Hope to talk with you again soon.

      Lady Veronica   KTI

      • #62691
        Seleena
        Lady

        Lady Veronica, I sooo wish more thought  and behaved the way you do. But, in my opinion, things are not as logical as you’d like them to be. Putting the responsibility of finding the reality in the BS totally on the questionee seems like putting the responsibility on the patient in the trauma canter to stop bleeding.

        We come online asking for help because we can’t do it ourselves, and our ability to think logically is likely not working well.

        In my opinion, unless we’re trained to give advice (and totally understand the potential impact of that advice), I think we need to refrain for offering anything except “be careful”.  And to be a good listener when things go south.

        But as much as we all claim to value the online communication we didn’t have years ago with others like us, it feels like the “help” we offer is more about our own egos and the need to appear cool because we’re out there (“and you can be too!) than it is about providing guidance.

    • #62695

      Hi Seleena!  This little forum is getting to be quite interesting to me. Thank you for your generous comment about me but I am no angel either. I find in this world that there is way too much talk and not enough do. A multiple bunch of words used where one would suffice does confuse the troops. I find that I get the verbal diareaha (blast….scoots) myself at times.

      Since I was in the Army it was hard for me to be more explitive in civilian life. As I mentioned, as a medic….I had to ask questions of the patient to ascertain how best to treat that which I did not see. God knows I am not the best person to ask for advice but then who is?  Anyhow…..as you mentioned, one must act carefully when advising people, especially strangers about what to do. I had to do that when I left the army and do hope I am getting better at it. In life we all experience problems and all the what ifs, and what then, and who can tell me what to do really muddles the issue. As I mentioned before…..The 3 steps of Crisis Management can serve all very well.  Always a pleasure Seleena….I wish we could meet somewhere and really get to know each other.  Hugs till we chat again sweetie.

      Lady Veronica

    • #62752
      Anonymous

      It took me 25 years to “Sneak-out” to my wife. It was difficult and sometimes painful, but slow and steady really did win the race. Constant talking was the key. I would not give direct advice on the chatline, unless it was a safety issue, but I do advocate negotiation rather than confrontation. If you push confrontation, you already consider marriage as a battleground and “shock and awe” as a possible weapon. But be prepared, your wife probably has a better arsenal, can inflict far deeper wounds and will have the last word. Finally, just because you’re “Out” doesn’t mean there won’t be relapses. Constant talking and reassurance is key. Every wife has different lines that she doesn’t want you to cross. My opinions, not advice.

      • #62755
        Seleena
        Lady

        Thanks for sharing your feelings and experience Grace.  And your point about relapses is  spot on. Yes, it’s hard work to prevent and manage those relapses but it’s how we can remain a good partner in spite of our unconventional lifestyle.

    • #62766
      Jackie
      Ambassador

      I agree, coming out to anyone especially family needs to be timed out and then the only person who truly knows when the time is right is themselves. For some the timing will never be right. The person has to make that ultimate decision for them self and be prepared to face whatever comes of it whether it be accepted, rejected or complete abandonment from the one’s they love, they have to prep themselves for whatever the outcome will be.

    • #347189
      Jackie
      Ambassador

      In my last post on this thread it may have seemed I was giving advice regarding “coming out”. In no way was it intended to be advice. Quite the contrary. I was speaking namely on my own behalf and personal experience of coming out.

    • #347204

      Interesting old thread!

      It does rather depend on the people involved though.

      Coming out as a cross dresser is not the same as coming out as gay or trans.

      If you’re either of those, it’s a full time commitment.

      As a cross dresser, it’s as part time as you feel it.

      Coming out as a cross dresser is simply admitting that you like dressing up.

      No harm. No big deal in and of itself.

      It’s only clothing. Let’s get it in perspective.

      There is every need to do it sensitively, because cross dressing isn’t widely understood, even by guys who do it, and you should be prepared for questions.

      You should also be prepared for the odd reactions of the ignorant – some people seem to find it an effrontery, and could even use violence – but some find religion or skin colour an effrontery in the same way. There are plenty of ignorant people in the world, and I am lucky enough to be one.

      It’s prejudice, pure and simple.

      But, unless it’s illegal where you live, then go on your journey with care.

      Many women cannot get over their own prejudice, and when that woman is the one you love and are married to, it presents a long journey of challenges.

      Stand up for your rights to express yourself – those are unquestionable.

      But protect those who may feel threatened by your actions – let them know you’re not a threat by whatever means appropriate.

      There’s no us and them, only us.

      Love

      Laura.

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