Women in mens clothes? but men in womens clothes?

This undoubtely is a timeless argument! but how do YOU feel about it?

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  • I am angry, its unfair and it shouldnt be this way
  • I have no opinion on this, i am neutral
  • I am happy for Genetic girls to wear 'mens' clothes
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  • #234309
    Fiona-Ann Moss
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    Hi Girls, yes, it’s that old chestnut again!! i was thinking about this and i must admit that it aggravates me thinking that Genetic girls can dress however they wish and little or no comments are made about it. For instance, Suits, Jeans, lumberjack shirts, Ties and countless other things that men also wear. If we wear ladies clothing such as Skirts, Dresses, Blouses, High heels etc, then we are looked at by society as ‘doing the wrong thing’, you and me know this is not the case because we do it because we feel we have to do it for a whole variety of reasons. So!!! how do you feel about this? does it anger you? do you have no opinion? maybe you are happy that its the way it is? be honest, how do you really feel?

    Fiona-Ann xxx

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    • #267918
      Tammie Swenson
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      ?  WHAT IS THE MATTER WITH MEN WEARING SKIRTS AND BLOUSES and carrying a “purse”

      ANSWER:     N O T H I N G 

      Men in Scotland have been doing it for centuries…..its just they call Men’s Skirts  KILTS and they call the PURSES a “SPORRAN” AND NO ONE blinks an eye

      see below from google

      the sporran (/ˈspɒrən/; Scottish Gaelic for “purse“), a traditional part of male Scottish Highland dress, is a pouch that performs the same function as pockets on the pocketless kilt. Made of leather or fur, the ornamentation of the sporran is chosen to complement the formality of dress worn with it.

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    • #267897
      Jin Crocker
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      What? You mean I am not allowed to wear anything I want?

      I have been switching and mixing what society considers ‘gender based’ fashion always.

      My only gripe is when I take off my top on hot days and someone whines about my breasts being exposed.

    • #267865
      Bobbi
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      This is a shining example of society’s inability to mind it’s own f*cking business!

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    • #267826
      Deb Cox
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      I don’t waste energy on things I cannot change, and anyone can wear whatever they want.

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    • #241848
      https://images.crossdresserheaven.com/7mjKzxo-RsH54RL7/w:auto/h:auto/q:75/https://www.crossdresserheaven.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/woman-gray-1.jpgAnonymous
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      I wanted to choose the first one but I can’t say I’m angry about it. Angry is a very strong word. I’m more disappointed that it is the way it is and I do feel like it’s a double standard but life is chock full of double standards.

    • #241821
      Rose Hill
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      Not so much as angry but a double standard.  Women can dress in pretty much whatever they want and no one will give it a s second thought, but if a man dresses in anything that appears effeminate then he is looked at in a different way. Male clothing is boring !  Women are lucky to get all the choices of male or female clothes, jeans, sweats, skirts, dresses etc.

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    • #240570
      Roxy Smith
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      There is a lot spoken about how much women are disadvantaged in the workplace ie. equal pay etc.  But one advantage (cis women) have is no one says anything if they dress in what is seen as “mens clothes”.  Yet cis men aren’t allowed to dress in “women’s clothes”.

      Roxy641

    • #240543
      Patty Phose
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      I feel I can dress in what ever I want and do. I love wearing pantyhose with heels and short dresses. Then I just finish up my fem look with breasts, hair and makeup. When I go out, I’m nervous about it at times but other then worrying about what someone’s reaction to me might be, I see no reason why I shouldn’t dress the way I love.

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    • #237162
      Ellie Hope
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      I have no issue with ladies dressing in clothing intended for men, they tend to make any clothing look good in my view! But what is so disappointing to me is how limiting and totally boring men’s clothing is! When CD’s talk about “being back in drab”, that really resonates with me.

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    • #236968
      Ruby Smith
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      I’m with some of the other ladies, I’m happy that genetic women can wear whatever they want. Now jealous, that I am. At one point in human history, it was nothing for a genetic man to wear things that are now deemed inappropriate. I hopeful that one day, any person can wear whatever they want, whenever they want.

    • #236419
      Aoife
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      I’m sure it’s driven us all crazy. « Oh do you want us to buy you a dress!? » was such an obnoxious response to any question about girls it really made me hate adults. What if I do? Maybe I’m not gonna fight you about it but why is that such a forbidden option? It’s just clothes, no reason to make it feel like cootie-coated contraband! Everyone should at least know how it feels just in an objective manner.

    • #236353
      Brenda Maidenform
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      Anyone should be free to express themselves. We should be free to wear what we want, it is just clothes for gods sake!

    • #235869
      https://images.crossdresserheaven.com/7mjKzxo-RsH54RL7/w:auto/h:auto/q:75/https://www.crossdresserheaven.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/woman-gray-1.jpgAnonymous
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      Hi girls, I’m happy that genetic girls wear whatever they want to. I’m jealous that they have such a range of clothes to pick from. I work with a lot of genetic girls and I wish I had their choice of clothes; sometimes a dress, sometimes a skirt and top, sometimes trousers. That’s why I like to underdress at work when I can, because on the outside I’m wearing my drab male suit but underneath I’m wearing the same pretty, maybe sexy, underwear that my colleagues are wearing. It makes me feel feminine. Liz.

    • #235761
      Jo Jo Sweet
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      I Agree that it is not a fair situation but i do not allow anger to spoil my day.

      I can dress at home as much as i want and have bought a rural place in France which i will be making a few changes and then offering a safe secluded place for people to have a holiday where they can dress as much as they want, with me as their host and my wife acting queen bee.

      If anyone would be interested please let me know and i can keep you informed of when it will be ready.

      XXX

    • #235345
      Rosiebeth
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      I agree with a lot of you girls.  I’m not angry. I just feel it’s unfair because everyone should be able to express themselves as they see fit.  Like some I’m a little jealous because women have so many different fashions that it seems endless in what they can wear and men, it’s shirt and pants.  Tides are changing and that’s something to look forward to.
      hugs &kisses

      Rosiebeth.

    • #235304
      Falecia McGuire
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      I think we have been deluding ourselves and missing some genuine opportunities.  Women wear men’s clothes as women.  I have been wearing women’s clothes as a man for a long time, with very limited discrimination.  I have not yet tried to pass as a women in public, but I might someday.  Meanwhile, I’m pretty happy wearing skinny jeans, high heeled booties or sandals, and tunics or blouses.  Sometimes I feel self conscious, but mostly I just get on with my business.  People ignore me or just seem-to accept me.  My wife is not comfortable with my feminine choices, so I tone it down when we’re together.  I’d like to take it up a notch and add stilettos and skirts, but for now I’m getting an adequate feminine fix.  I think it’s enough to kick up the endorphins!

      FAM

    • #235303
      Ashley
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      I wouldn’t so much say I’m angry about it. More like at least a little jealous sometimes. And disappointed in society for it.

      I did vote neutral, but after some thought I think I would have voted I am happy for GGs for it. I know they can look good in my clothes with a lot less effort than it tends to take me to look good in their clothes!

    • #235056
      Heather Jameson
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      I don’t think it’s fair but it’s one of those, that’s just the way it is. The world has come a long way but is still far from accepting  the LGBTQ  community. Heck our own community doesn’t even accept us, gay men don’t like us because we look like women and they aren’t into women. The lesbian community tolerates us but we’re not lesbians we are men dressed like women. So we’ve got a long way to go, it won’t be in my life time but things are definitely better than when I was young.

      • #235250
        Cherrie Llewellyn
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        Not angry about it, just frustrated.  I do have a lot of gay friends that are drag queens and and I also have lesbian friends that are on our side of life. They know we are who we are and love our community, cuz we are our selves.

         

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    • #234934
      Rozalyne Richards
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      Hi girls it doesn’t bother me at all that women can wear what they want and no one bat’s an eyelid, but if a man wear’s a skirt or a dress they get called all sorts of names, but a scotsman can wear a kilk which is a form of skirt and no one minds at all, it’s just a bit funny that don’t you think, maybe that’s the answer we should all take to wearing a kilk when we are out and we won’t be called any bad names, it’s just a thought, hugs Rozalyne x

      • #236884
        https://images.crossdresserheaven.com/7mjKzxo-RsH54RL7/w:auto/h:auto/q:75/https://www.crossdresserheaven.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/woman-gray-1.jpgAnonymous
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        I once went to a Ceilidh, and wore a kilt, with the correct shirt, sporran and socks.

        It was an amazing experience, but I had to be a bit careful with some of the more energetic dances, as I followed the Scottish model to the letter…

        Love Laura

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    • #234933
      Melissa Davis
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      As a strongly heterosexual man I see a lot of women who look terrific in menswear when worn with style. Why begrudge women a wide range of choices? Hetero crossdressers have a narrower range. We strive to appear feminine; it’s natural for us to choose clothes associated with femininity. I do wear leggings and pants sometimes, but I never feel and look more feminine than when I wear a skirt that flatters my figure. Though I’m overdressed for some of the places I go, I prefer that to dressing down just to blend with the crowd.

    • #234863
      Fiona-Ann Moss
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      Thanks Girls! there is nothing like a good debate eh? but seriously, i do agree with the many points mentioned, especially the fact that if the majority of men started wearing pencil skirts, or any other skirt for that matter, then eventually it would become the norm and not a problem anymore to some. I feel that there are many issues within this problem, up at the top is the ‘macho’ image so many men desire, me wearing a skirt? god forbid!! and all that stuff. Our real break would be if a top celebrity started wearing skirts and i mean a real persuasive figure in society. Most humans are followers, who knows? it might catch on! if i so remember, and i have mentioned it before (i think), David Beckham, the footballer in the uk, tried to start a skirt trend off, but failed miserably. Maybe perserverence may have paid off here but we shall never know.

      Society is slowly moving forward but still a lot of work needs to be done. Just think though, if suddenly men dressing in womens clothes became the norm and fully accepted by the dinosaurs of society, that is one issue out of the way, but! there is still the issue of men taking on the feelings of being a woman and this being accepted by society, unfairly, this i feel, is going to be a hard nut to crack. Simply put, men dressing in womens clothes will not stop the word crossdresser from being used just because theoretically, one issue such as wearing ladies clothes has been accepted, as we all know, this is just the tip of the iceberg!!! thanks for your very thought provoking replies so far!! lets keep the debate going!!!

      Love and kisses, Fiona-Ann xxx

    • #234842
      IsabelB
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      This is more complicated than the answers allow.

      I am certainly happy for genetic girls to wear ‘men’s’ clothing – in as much as I am happy for anyone to wear anything they would like to and feel comfortable in at any time of their choosing.

      Equally, I think that social opinion generally has issues with men in ‘women’s’ clothing, something which I do find very frustrating.  But then I have issues with anyone dictating what others can do (outside of things causing physical or psychological harm).  Am I angry about it? – yes, maybe a little at times.

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    • #234745
      Samantha Belle
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      I’m not angry. Why should I be angry at gg women who can wear and identify as they wish. Interesting how Crossdressers meaning FtM can cut their hair short and wear jeans and flannel shirts and it draws very little attention. But a man doing the same thing in woman’s clothes is a viewed as a freak or other nasty words. Why is this? Because the media and society has taught or brainwashed the public as to what it means to be a man or a woman. Cut and dry. Blue is for boys, pink is for girls and never the 2 shall be mixed or switched.

      Yes the coming of gender roles as fluid and with more gender descriptions than I can keep track of is good, but society as a whole is still very rigid in it’s beliefs.

      My solution for myself to dress more androgynous when out in public, but not heavily fem. I work at a retail store that attracts unconventional staff and customers. I’ve worn tights and pantyhose under shorts and brighter fem colors of clothing and have received many compliments of these things, but if i was to come into work in a skirt or dress, the line would be crossed.

      Those who can cross the line and truly be yourselves, I applaud you and look forward the day I can do that. The cracks in the wall are happening, but ever so slowly.

      Samantha

    • #234685
      anne-marie
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      I don’t really give a nats fig about this.

      The primary reason I even notice women is because I’m hard wired to perv at them – tits, ass and pins.

      As to the between the lines aspect of the question. Tell an Iranian or Saudi woman who chooses / is forced into a burqa, a niqab, hijab, jilbab, chador or some similar garments that they can wear what they want.

      Also, the only thing stopping men wearing feminine style clothes (or should that be clothes intended as woman’s wear) in much of contemporary western society is societal attitudes and norms.

      I for myself reluctantly tend to conform with these norms in public (emphasis on tend to as I don’t always). I believe that this is also the case with many (so called) cross dressing men. I do however believe that we are the victims of our own behaviour. I have very little doubt that if en-mass we began to frequently and openly wear (for example) pencil skirts, that initially we would meet some opposition. As the populous became adjusted to men wearing pencil skirts – as they would with enough exposure –  it would become much less of an issue and eventually a non issue.

      I firmly believe that a major thing that also limits the acceptance amongst the populous of ‘men in a dress’ or men wearing skirts is that we try to pass or fit in as women. When women adopted male clothing, they didn’t really do that. It has to be acknowledged that a some level, men trying to fit in with the identification of woman is a scary thing. Men particularly find this threatening.

      Same goes with most other items of ‘femme’ clothing. If some manufacturer made dresses that conformed to the male anatomy and (by magic) lots of men began to wear them regularly then, after the passage of time, providing enough men adopted wearing these dresses, it would become a non issue.

      In both instances, once the style of clothing became accepted then it would only take aittle well planned push for a wider range of similar clothing to be accepted e.g. pencil skirt to a-line skirt or the dress to a wider range of dresses.

      I just wonder, if it did become acceptable for men to wear skirts, dresses, blouses etc, then would we cross-dressers still have the same zeal to wear these clothes that we currently do? Would the adoption of (what is currently refered to) woman’s wear into mens or gender neutral/unisex wear detract from the atraction i.e. is it the female identity that draws us towards dressing ‘en femme’.

      Interesting then how transsexuals are slowly becoming more accepted in society. Even a short while ago transsexualism was a mental illness whilst homosexuality was illegal – how things have / are changing.

      Perhaps something to ponder?

      Take care girls.

      Anne-Marie.

       

      • This reply was modified 7 months ago by anne-marie.
      • #234698
        anne-marie
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        I was also going to add to the above that I firmly believe that a major thing that also limits the acceptance amongst the populous of ‘men in a dress’ or men wearing skirts is that we try to pass or fit in as women. When women adopted male clothing, they didn’t really do that. It has to be acknowledged that a some level, men trying to fit in with the identification of woman is a scary thing. Men particularly find this threatening.

        The site stopped me editing – as it seems to do from time to time – probably my phone doing this though.

        Take care girls.

        Anne-Marie.

        • #234929
          https://images.crossdresserheaven.com/7mjKzxo-RsH54RL7/w:auto/h:auto/q:75/https://www.crossdresserheaven.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/woman-gray-1.jpgAnonymous
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          Some try to pass.

          I don’t.

          I know what and who I am – and I’ve totally come to terms with it.

          When I wear anything feminine, I like to create a shape and image that suits the nice clothes, so the wig, heels, jewellery, etc. are to compliment the image, yes, and blur the fact that I’m a man as much as possible, in order to not be stared at.

          Because people don’t totally get it unless you make a big effort.

          A half dressed, poorly made up cross dresser doesn’t look good.

          I don’t mean that in a horrible way – you can tell from people’s expressions.

          Hmm… so it’s a bit like passing, I guess… but from a different angle. I’ll probably never pass as a woman, but as a nicely presented criss dresser, who knows?

          Maybe one day!

          Love Laura

          • #234996
            Lori Stark
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            Dear Laura, I think your approach is the correct one. I’m trying to come to grips with knowing I’ll be read pretty much by everybody. I’m a shy girl, and I have to find a way to face that fact.

            Lori 💋

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          • #235319
            https://images.crossdresserheaven.com/7mjKzxo-RsH54RL7/w:auto/h:auto/q:75/https://www.crossdresserheaven.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/woman-gray-1.jpgAnonymous
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            Hi Lori

            I wouldn’t say correct, it just works for me – I’m really glad it resonates with you!

            I’m not an outgoing person either, but, with experience of several outings, I have found I’m much more confident and outgoing as Laura.

            It may not work for everyone – like not everyone learns to swim simply by jumping in.

            It’s a great way to find your limits quickly though!

            Love Laura

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    • #234622
      Caty Ryan
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      Hi girls

      It does not bother me what anyone of any gender (over the entire current spectrum of that word) wears… It’s their business and theirs alone.

      That said a male CD  who chooses to emulate Ru Paul in their local supermarket is a moral to get some attention and if they are comfy with that, so be it.

      What gripes me no end is the double standards at work in this debate. As I have previously posted under “dressing double standards”, I once left a Caty photo out where my beloved found it and things were quite “frosty”around here for a good 24hrs.

      That would be at the time she had her sewing machine out altering a mans shirt for her daughter’s work uniform….

      That’s OK, but me in a dress, wig and heels is not…I hate all the lies and subterfuge I have to go to to have Caty time, would much rather be upfront. But as in the article I have coming up on CDH, when I attended a CD conference three years ago and “owned up” She did not answer a single text message the whole four days I was away.

      “Damned if I do, Damned I dont”.

      Just like when I did the post above

      GGGGGGGGGGRRRRRRRRRRRR.

      Caty

       

       

       

    • #234540
      Alice Underwire
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      It’s unfair that GG’s can wear traditional men’s apparel.  I’m not mad but sad because I love to wear skirts and dresses.  Clothing manufactures are competitive and you’d think would welcome our purchases.  After all they are competing with the on line sites.

      Thanks Fiona for posting a great question.

      Alice

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    • #234497
      Candy Can
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      I’m not angry. Sad maybe, but not angry.
      It IS unfair, but life is unfair.

      As has been said, go back to the ’50s, and women were expected to wear skirts and dresses, and not miniskirts and dresses either. A subset of women changed that expectation for ALL western women, to the point where they wore jeans, pantsuits, shorts, and minis (remember ‘hot pants’?).

      I think change will only happen for males in the same way. ie If enough men wear something different to the accepted norm.
      I don’t see that happening, yet, in big enough numbers to make the change.
      Maybe it happens with beach wear? Holiday wear? At home wear?

      • #235191
        Bettylou Cox
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        “At home wear” would be a fabulous place to start the ball rolling. Hey! Much of my at-home time is now spent wearing either my nightgown or a denim skirt, and stepping out in the skirt isn’t too much of a leap.

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      • #235124
        Leonara
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        The trend in men’s
        fashions are the tapered or skinny
        pants and the shorter suit or blazer
        jackets… also a black loafer can be
        close to “girly flats”..just a thought
        Leonara

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        • #235239
          Alice Underwire
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          Hi Leonara,

          The fashion industry has marketed skirts towards men (Not kilts).  In the warmer months I’ve seen younger men (college age and mid 20’s) wearing their skirts in urban city streets.

          Alice

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    • #234475
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      I think there is a shrinking but very opinionated and vocal section of society which still holds this outdated view.

      Sadly, that minority seems to include wives.

      I’ve seen so many examples, including my own wife, of women who really don’t mind at all, unless it’s their husband. Then he suddenly becomes “Not the man I married”.

      There’s just no sense in this attitude, yet it’s quite common – and, I believe, damaging not just to the marriage, but to the husband who, despite coming out, is forced to make the choice between leaving the marriage or staying closeted and unhappy.

      Most loving, decent husbands choose the marriage and pain, rather than the greater pain of separation – yet that choice is uneccessary, according to the laws of the UK and many other countries.

      The notion of who can wear what is a non-issue.

      Clothes are for keeping warm and “decent”.

      They are also a means of self expression.

      No-one should be forced to dress a certain way.

      If you join the army, you accept that you must wear the uniform – that’s a given for so many good reasons, such as preservation!

      There’s nothing in any marriage contract I know of that stipulates how anyone in the partnership should dress – it’s not a deal breaker or maker.

      No husband divorces his wife because she stops wearing pretty dresses.

      If you went out in a dress, heels and wig, most people would turn a blind eye.

      That’s been my experience time and time again.

      You can dress exactly how you like in 2019.

      Love Laura

       

    • #234467
      Emily Alt
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      I’m glad GG’s can freely wear whatever they want, at least in Western countries.  I also think it’s unfair that men are held to a rigid standard that doesn’t afford nearly the amount of freedom genetic women have.  I want that to change, and I think the only way it will happen is if we demand it through our actions.  That means more of us need to come out of the shadows, myself included.

      I live in California and I’m well aware I have the law on my side.  I could wear a dress to work and would likely prevail in a legal proceeding if my employer chose to take action.  But as a practical matter, wearing a dress to work would make it nearly impossible to work effectively at my job.  I would lose the trust and respect of most of my co-workers.  It would be a miserable existence and I’m not going there.  Workplaces like mine are the still the majority, even in California.  Regardless of what the US Supreme Court (or any court) does, they can’t change people’s attitudes.  Yes, things are better than 10 or 20 years ago, but we still have a long road ahead of us.

      While I’m unwilling to present en femme at work, I do plan to get out in public more often.  That’s something most of us can and should do.  It’s good for us as individuals and it’s the best way to gain more acceptance from society.

      This has been a thought provoking poll.  Lots of good points and differing perspectives.  Thanks Fee for posting.

      • #234892
        Bettylou Cox
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        Emily,
        You have presented an interesting conundrum: In order to be accepted, we need to be seen in fairly large numbers…but that necessarily also means being clocked, which most of us strive to avoid. And we also need to be seen in a positive light, as “good girls” rather than just odd people.

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        • #235752
          Emily Alt
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          Hi Bettylou – yes the fear of being exposed is a big concern for most of us. For some, their fear is totally warranted. But for a many, myself included, I believe fear has become a crutch, and is holding us back.

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    • #234412
      Bettylou Cox
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      I think it’s unfair that women can wear anything, including “man-ish” suits with impunity, while we get called out for anything remotely femme, including nail polish…..but nobody ever said that life was fair. It doesn’t “bug” me, and I find that I care less each day what others think about how I dress.

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    • #234383
      Dame Veronica Graunwolf
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      My Sisters………. I have on and found for years…….cat calls and “table legs or pipe stems (the pipes I nice and the bagpipes….well….never gook thee fen for them). It is the Sinclair the Clan Tartan is my fav. Kilt ! And we go combat in the Kilt………everything goes…..wee me dainties under the dresses! The not had the Honor to accompanies with a 2 lasses wearing tuxedo on for a swarazee with the evening…..fetching young lads.

      Dame Veronica

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      • #234387
        Fiona-Ann Moss
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        Ok!! Veronica, yes men do wear kilts!! true you dont see many, usually at events or the more seasoned scotsmen, but nonetheless they have been worn for centuries? i think also, without wanting to sound vulgar, that some Genetic females find men in kilts kinda ermmm well, sexy!! 🙂

        Fee xxx

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    • #234372
      Dame Veronica Graunwolf
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      The girls wearing tuxedos at the Oscars or business stroll……..they are very fetching! Yes…..”our” dressing gets a flood of cat calls. It is our species can be quite boorish!

      Dame Veronica

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    • #234370
      Brenda Parkhurst
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      I’m happy for them. How can I not be when I want everyone to be happy for me and all of the other CD’s when we present?  Our clothing should express our feelings and our style without the constraint of other’s preconceived notion of what is appropriate for whatever role they think they can assign us.  Each of us should be able to make our own choices and I certainly encourage GGs, CDs, TGs, and all the other Gs to be comfortable and real with how they dress.

      What I do find interesting is how people have little or no reaction to a GG who dresses very butch.  Those who present that way can pass virtually unnoticed in any setting.  Even those that kind of go over the top to an almost costume-y level can function without comment or constraints.  It society and people’s expectations of a man’s role that say that expressions of femininity in presentation are unacceptable and somehow wrong.  It’s then easy for us who can’t or don’t feel permitted to be authentic to resent those who can and do. But that’s exactly the wrong way around.  The more we support and encourage GGs to be themselves in their expression, the more we can demand an expect the same in return.

      If we love ourselves in all of our rainbow of colors, then we must extend that to everyone, not just those in our part of the spectrum.

       

       

    • #234369
      Stephanie Turner
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      its unfair but its been this way for so long that it will take a long time to change peoples attitudes ,i was for a long time hiding myself but now things are changing for the better  i rember thinking i was in the wrong being who i am and this goes back some years its getting better for instance there are now sites like this which lets us know we are not alone and that there are people who understand and dont judge us the way it was before

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    • #234327
      https://images.crossdresserheaven.com/7mjKzxo-RsH54RL7/w:auto/h:auto/q:75/https://www.crossdresserheaven.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/woman-gray-1.jpgAnonymous
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      Since I don’t know about many other cultures, will keep it in the frame of our Western Civilizations.

      A) Women won the right to wear whatever they wanted. For years women wearing pants were seen as scandalous and all were called the worst names. But they prevailed. And then of course with the industrial revolution moving into the war efforts, women had to move on to wearing comfortable/factory safe clothes.

      B) Men can wear any clothes they want… if they are willing to pay the price. Have a critical mass of men wearing dresses, and then it will become “normal”.

      C) Women are usually not wearing “Men’s clothes”. They are wearing jeans and slacks and pantsuits made for women. And other than some limited cases, they are not trying to deny their femininity by wearing “masculine” styled clothes.

      D) And then there is the issue of “intent”. Women are not binding their chests or getting silicone abdominal inserts to give them a more masculine body. It is a totally different scenario. I have never seen a woman trying to pass herself as a man, other than in movies. Even “butch” lesbians are not going to the extreme of pretending to be men.

      So, in a nutshell… if you are a man who wants to wear women’s clothes, who is stopping you? It is not forbidden in most of our countries. And in the US you can perfectly go to work wearing whatever you want in some states. (The sister republic of California comes to mind). Are you willing to do so? and even more important… is that what you really want? Because it is NOT what I want.

      Have a fashion company start making a line of men’s dresses… similar in design and fabrics to their women’s dresses line. I will NEVER buy anything from them. Same with a line of “men’s high heels”. They can keep them all. I don’t want to wear women’s clothes and still present like a man. I don’t want to wear dresses and heels for men. Do you? Really?

      If you want to wear women’s jeans and women’s blouses (like many already do, not to talk about those who “underdress” daily) what is stopping you? Why the whining? Earn the right if that is what you really want. And just wear them, if that is what you want. Sorry if it sounds harsh… but no need to  complain about what women can or not wear. It is up to you about what you can wear…

      Gaby ♥

      • #234342
        Fiona-Ann Moss
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        Hi Gaby, i am well aware that any of us can wear what we want but the issue is that many of us would feel uncomfortable doing it outside, why? because society sees it that way, not because of what we want to wear but because of what society tells us to wear. I know this is wrong and it sucks. Turn the tables however and society does not bat an eyelid!! geez, even if a Genetic girl went outside wearing just a bin bag she would be deemed as ‘sexy’. No, times need to change, we push for equal rights, but where’s our rights? why do a lot of peoples attitudes towards us stink?

        I think it all boils down to evolution, Genetic women have always been looked upon as the ‘weaker sex’ whereas men are viewed as the ‘dominant or stronger sex’ , here in societys eyes, we should act accordingly. This is all well and good, summed up in a peanutshell, but as we are all aware, there are many other issues at stake here such as gender issues for example, but hey! because society doesnt see it from our perspective, its swept under the carpet like so many other issues are.

        For the record, i have absolutely nothing against Genetic girls (i am married to one), what annoys me is the principle of it and the unfairness of it

        Fee xxx

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        • #234366
          https://images.crossdresserheaven.com/7mjKzxo-RsH54RL7/w:auto/h:auto/q:75/https://www.crossdresserheaven.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/woman-gray-1.jpgAnonymous
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          Hi Fee! First, let me start by saying that in my original reply I was using “You” as in a plural, everybody else “You”, not as in “you, Fiona”. 🙂

          You are right that at least in our societies being a man is seen as a better thing than being a woman. So, it is easy to understand why a woman would be wanting to masculine (to improve herself) but a man wanting to be feminine is preposterous as of why would anybody want to be “less -something'” of who they are.

          But again, in general, women wearing men’s styled clothes or even clothes belonging to their boyfriend/husband/dad are not really an issue because they are not seen as going against their gender. Which is the case if you were out wearing your girlfriend’s/wife’s/daughter’s clothes. And they would be right. Or can you all tell me that you believe that a daughter wearing her dad’s sweater is doing it to feel masculine/like a guy? While if you were wearing your daughter’s sweater, in particular identifying yourself as a CD/TG person, would you be truthful if you said that you are not wearing it to “feel feminine”.

          Motivation is the biggest difference. IMHO.

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          • #234371
            Fiona-Ann Moss
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            *sighs* ok, i’ll hold my hands up there Gaby. I have no argument there and being the honest person i am, i admit i only wear womens clothes to feel my Feminine normal self. I suppose many other Genetic girls just throw on a sweater because its cold or its the first thing to hand. Looking at it from the sense of us feeling feminine, rather than just wearing a dress as an ordinary man (no fem feelings attached) does put it into perspective. I suppose you could look at this poll as more of a gripe than a useful poll, but sometimes its great to hear other members views on this, as for you Gaby, you have expertly illustrated a point that i did not consider. I shall now go and stand in the naughty corner until i’m told i can come out!!

            Hugs, Fee xxx

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          • #234382
            Lori Stark
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            The Supreme Court of the United States is, at this very moment, considering whether a person can be fired from their job for wearing clothes of the “wrong” gender. The case is actually quite a bit more complicated than that, but I will note that the only reason it is under consideration at all is because somebody was so offended by the very idea that they filed a law suit, which has now worked its way all the way to the highest court in the country. The Court has recently been packed with religious conservatives who are likely to strike down long-established workplace protections for trans people. Those who fear or hate gender non-conformity are seeking official approval for their prejudices, and there is a good chance the Court will grant it. The case applies to job discrimination toward trans people, but the way this works is that –depending on how the Court rules — official prejudice may well trickle down to all of us.

            I love my sisters here, and I want us all to feel free to wear clothes of our own choosing. But when the topic of “closeted or out” comes up, as it often does here at CDH, it is situations like this that can help to explain why many of us (OK, I’m talking about myself) remain in the shadows. There is much bigotry in the land. Some of the bigots think their position is ordained by God and are willing to go so far as to try to get the law on their side.

            I don’t want to run into any of them while dressed “wrong.”

          • #234470
            Sa·man·tha
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            Hello Lori… I don’t get that the justices themselves really “get it” lol but that’s normal isn’t it?

            Still, I feel hopeful because the supreme court has a tendency to defer to precedent.  There’s a long & established precedent for workplace protections, gender equality protections, and local & state laws prohibiting the wearing of clothes of the “wrong gender” being struck down by the courts.  So I’m hopeful it’ll go our way.  Of course society and law are two different stories but at the least we’ll see what needs to be done next.

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          • #234494
            Lori Stark
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            Hope you’re right, Sammy, but the two new justices (appointed by the current president) have already voted to overturn long-standing precedent on two cases (unrelated to the current matter), so apparently they said some bullshit during their confirmation hearings. Anyway, the Court won’t rule on these cases for a couple of months so if you happen to have a narrow-minded employer you can relax for at least that long. 🙃

            PS: I voted for “I am happy for Genetic girls to wear ‘mens’ clothes.” And I am.

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          • #234421
            https://images.crossdresserheaven.com/7mjKzxo-RsH54RL7/w:auto/h:auto/q:75/https://www.crossdresserheaven.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/woman-gray-1.jpgAnonymous
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            You may find under the present leadership both in the states and here in the UK that tolerance is in short supply.

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          • #234394
            Fiona-Ann Moss
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            It is certainly food for thought Lori. but why on earth listen to just one person? you will never ever get a complete agreement with anything, you will always get a few troublemakers making it their business to disrupt anything in life and not just crossdressing or transgender issues. People like this are usually ‘haters’ they hate change, they hate race, colour, homosexuals or anyone not complying to societies stupid rules. Really, this person should be facing charges against hate crime. Issues like this are things we really do not need, unless the outcome is in our favour, i hope some good comes of it and that common sense reigns supreme 🙂

            Fiona-Ann xxx

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          • #234424
            Lori Stark
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            Terrific attitude, Fiona, but you may have missed my point. In the U.S., an individual can’t just knock on the door at the Supreme Court and present their case. This case (it’s actually three cases being heard at the same time) has taken years to get there, at a cost of who knows how many hundreds of thousands of dollars, probably provided by one or more large conservative organizations. It stems from a personal or — more likely — a religious aversion to LGBTQ people, presumably including men who dress in women’s clothes, and the intent of the suit is to make it legal to discriminate against those who live and identify as non-binary. If you are a man in a dress, in other words, the Court is deciding if you have any civil rights in the United States.

            So to answer your original poll question, I can easily put aside my feelings about all the women who “get away” with wearing men’s clothing. Actually, I kind of like it, and apparently so does the religious right in this country. But if you are a man who chooses to dress cross-gender, watch out! As I said in my first comment, depending on how the Court decides, we may be entering a new era of anti-LGBTQ discrimination, supported by the government.

            There seems to be a rule prohibiting posting links on CDH, so if you’re interested in this topic, just search online for “Supreme Court Transgender Discrimination.” Then you might get as fired up as I am.

            Luv ya!
            Lori Stark 💋

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          • #234375
            https://images.crossdresserheaven.com/7mjKzxo-RsH54RL7/w:auto/h:auto/q:75/https://www.crossdresserheaven.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/woman-gray-1.jpgAnonymous
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            Fee, awww c’mon sister! We know where we are coming from and how it can be frustrating at times.

            So, not fighting you, and sorry if I may have sounded unsympathetic.

            So, please write me in your list of prospective customers for when you open your beauty parlor ok? Want the works!! 🙂

            *hugs*

            Gaby

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          • #234380
            Fiona-Ann Moss
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            Gaby, i could never ever get mad with you!! we both joined here together on the same day!! how uncanny is that!! we have been friends ever since 🙂 . I love you as a sister and a true friend 🙂 . Lol anyone that knows me well enough on here, knows i am feisty and darned hard work and also ermmm kinda opinionated at times. Young mind, think i know it all and i dont!! sometimes needs someone wiser to get me back on the path 🙂

            Hugs, Fee xxx

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          • #235362
            Davida Mae
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            Heather; I like and agree with your comments. Things are definitely much different then when I was a kid and like you I doubt that the acceptance of me wearing Mary Jane heels with a pleated skirt …. “not in my life time”

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