Which of the following, aside from biological/genetic females, should be entitled to use a woman's restroom ?
Determine who should have a right to use a woman's restroom
- those who internally identify as female and present as female 74.75% 74 votes
- those who do not internally identify as female but present as female 43.43% 43 votes
- none 17.17% 17 votes
- those who internally identify as female but do not present as female 2.02% 2 votes
- those who do not internally identify as female and do no present as female 0% 0 votes
- This topic has 45 replies, 23 voices, and was last updated 2 months ago by
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Registered On: September 29, 2021Topics: 5Replies: 414Has thanked: 437 timesBeen thanked: 1655 timesThe TG world seems to focus unduly on bathrooms. States sometimes legislate the issue, always with great controversy. Legislation often focuses on the right of a person to use the restroom for the sex with which they “identify.” I have long wondered why that is logical. After all, how could one know how another “identifies”? Wouldn’t it make more sense to base rights on something more visible, such as presentation? Or perhaps biological sex would be more appropriate, if one is concerned about seeing genitals which are inappropriate for the chosen restroom.
My daughter, very liberal-minded, invited me to go to Harbin Hot Springs with her, only adding as we were about to head off that bathing suits were optional and she had no bathing suit. That was a lot to take in for me, but I had promised her I’d spend time doing whatever she chose as long as it was neither unhealthy nor illegal. She took full advantage of that privilege, which opened me up in turn to shed my own baggage and share with her that I was a crossdresser. So here we were, sharing a co-ed locker room and pools… all perfectly normal and acceptable in her world, but as yet unsettling to me, for reasons I had trouble understanding. Since then, we have been in public together many times at many events. She even took me bra shopping once in hopes of making me more presentable.
Imagine my surprise, when visiting her last week, in hearing that she felt I should not enter a woman’s restroom when dressed en femme because it is disrespectful of women. Apparently, times are changing or my hippie is coming of age. It caused me to ponder the situation. I have always been as discreet as possible when entering a women’s restroom, trying to avoid it if it were busy, getting in and out quickly without striking up conversation, not revealing anything to give me away as a man, and never being addressed or seen as such as far as I know. But my daughter would differ, asserting that anyone would know I was a man, what I do is “cosplay,” so I should use the men’s room even if dressed en femme. I think she knows enough to realize that the risk of assault from a crossdresser is almost nil… the chance of assault would be greater and I would be the likely victim, if I used the men’s room… so that is not her concern.
So I am rethinking the situation. Should a crossdresser (i.e., someone who has a strong feminine side and desire to present as a woman but who is not transitioned, transitioning, intending to transition, or believes she truly IS a woman), when dressed en femme, use the women’s room if she so chooses?
If so, is it because she internally identifies as a woman, presents (convincingly?) as a woman or both? Should women’s restrooms be restricted to biological women? Should ANYONE have a right to use whatever restroom they wish, regardless of how they present or identify?
My poll questions attempt to cover all possibilities of presentation, identity, and biology.
I am guessing that if this same question were posed on the transgender side of this site, the results may differ. I may follow this with a similar poll directed to that audience.
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Registered On: August 24, 2019Topics: 125Replies: 1787Has thanked: 2328 timesBeen thanked: 9466 timesUnfortunately, some of the comments in this thread have turned political. So it’s been closed to further comment.
As a reminder, the Community Code of Conduct prohibits political discussion.
- Sensitive topics such as politics, religion and sex are prohibited, except where it is necessary to touch upon these in regards to the transgender journey or experience.
Emily Alt
Assistant Managing AmbassadorThis is an excellent question.Let me first say that the separation of bathrooms was to protect women from predatory men.That being said,it is clear now as evidence shows that there are as many predatory women as there are men.Just look at the stories of female teachers molesting young boys.
The push to allow anyone to use any bathroom they choose is being pushed more by radical lgbt agenda then anyone else.I think this is more about sex predators having access to their intended target than anything,especially in schools.Which seem to be the largest promoters of unisex bathrooms and locker rooms.
As I am what is referred to as”transgender”a term I really detest,I use the women’s room when dressed and the men’s when not.I am not there to ogle your privates,I am there to answer natures call.I don’t use the restroom as a social gathering place and neither should you.
On one point I have to disagree.Women’s restrooms are not any cleaner than men’s.
Please,lets keep separate restrooms for the sexes.If you truly identify as female then use the lady’s when dressed and the men’s when not.
Catherine
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- Registered On: September 29, 2021Topics: 5Replies: 414Has thanked: 437 timesBeen thanked: 1655 times
If the purpose of separating bathrooms is to avoid predatory men my observation is that this is unrelated to attacks by men who dress en femme perpetrated on women. From what I have read, such attacks are extremely rare or perhaps even non-existent. The fear here may stem from the fact that men who dress as women are deviant and are thought, incorrectly, to be sexual predators. I know this firsthand because it is the reason given my children by my ex-wife for having to leave me. Is isolating restrooms justified, not by an ACTUAL threat from predators, but by the UNFOUNDED FEAR that a man dressed en femme is a predator? My exwife resolved her fear by cutting off communication and refusing to be around me, as I represent a threat to her. This resolved her issues but generated new issues for our children and others who don’t share those fears, yet suffer the consequences of separation.
Generally speaking, is unfounded fear of something that is not a real threat sufficient to justify eliminating perceived threats? Is the answer situational? Does it need to consider the consequences to others, such as restrictions of the freedom of perceived perpetrators? If so, how can such things be measured and determined?
- Registered On: September 29, 2021Topics: 5Replies: 414Has thanked: 437 timesBeen thanked: 1655 times
Good to know! Only 1% of the voters in this poll would agree with them. I have lived in Miami, have a time-share in Indian Rocks Beach, and spent much time in Clearwater/Largo and Orlando areas visiting my parents, who lived there until they died. Maybe next trip we can meet up and offer mutual support and protection by visiting a men’s room together, but then again, likely not. Florida statutes are unique in many ways… some helpful and some not.
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- Registered On: June 26, 2019Topics: 27Replies: 557Has thanked: 2133 timesBeen thanked: 2924 times
A MTF CD should use the female bathroom, because girls use the ladies room, and boys use the men’s room.
I know that sounds very simple, but why make it complicated? That being said, we, as MTF CDs, should adhere to certain common sense rules, when using the ladies room.
1. Do not stare at other persons in the ladies room.
2. When in the stall, keep your feet pointing strait out. This presumes you will be using the commode as a lady does.
3. Do not speak, unless spoken to.
4. Do not loiter in the ladies room, a quick touch-up of lipstick is ok.
I have had several interesting experiences in the ladies room over the years, which I will not get into here, as I do not want to detract from the subject poll.
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- Registered On: September 29, 2021Topics: 5Replies: 414Has thanked: 437 timesBeen thanked: 1655 times
Indeed, why make it complicated? But isn’t that what legislators are doing by defining rest room etitlement according to identity rather than presentation? Those with knowledge of the subject… respondents to this poll.. seem to agree with you that feminine presentation is key; identity as a female is insufficient unless presenting as female. While this poll is revealing what may be obvious to most taking it, I hope it will cause some to consider how the obvious can be made so to others who fear and/or condemn what they don’t understand. How can we positively impact educators, legislators, counselors, the women in our lives and others?
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- Registered On: February 27, 2020Topics: 3Replies: 1202Has thanked: 6027 timesBeen thanked: 5465 times
All good points girls but let’s not forget the most important point: The ladies rooms are ten times cleaner to use. I am not going to stand at a urinal to pee and dont want to sit on a seat that guys have peed on or read their writings on the walls.
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- Registered On: April 22, 2023Topics: 16Replies: 982Has thanked: 3517 timesBeen thanked: 2408 times
“Or perhaps biological sex would be more appropriate, if one is concerned about seeing genitals which are inappropriate for the chosen restroom.” Rhonda Lee
I don’t expect to see anyone’s genitals in any washroom, not even when standing in front of a urinal. That is inappropriate.
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Reading through your amazing post, and all the replies, the one chord that struck home for me has more to do with the passive nature of most, if not all, crossdressers, and how that should impact the end result of one of us entering a ladies bathroom. I think most, if not all of us, are not looking for trouble in a bathroom. When dressed in silks and satins, are we presenting our alpha male side..?.. I kinda think not. To me, the whole act of dressing up as feminine as possible takes all those edges off and makes me much more docile and passive. I for one would be doing much more staring in the men’s room then the ladies room… but enough about me. What do we all do? … Basically whatever we feel comfortable doing at the moment.
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- Registered On: April 22, 2023Topics: 16Replies: 982Has thanked: 3517 timesBeen thanked: 2408 times
This is just a question of logic.
If you are not presenting yourself as female, what are you doing in the women’s washroom? Doing so seems to be confrontational.
Yes, women can dress in a masculine way, but they usually still look feminine, to one degree or another, and doing so is not in any way confrontational.
The opposite (being en femme in the men’s washroom) is downright dangerous, so, unless a gender-neutral washroom is available, then the women’s washroom would still be the logical choice.
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I think it hinges around presentation. There’s many nuances and it’s not the only bit of reasoning but it’s an appearance or change from the ordinary that throws and upsets people.thay expect to see people of female appearance in a female only area.
You get problematic folk in all walks and level of life which gives need for further reasoning but that’s after initial “contact” .
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- Registered On: July 20, 2020Topics: 7Replies: 687Has thanked: 8795 timesBeen thanked: 3534 times
When I’m out and dressed, I always use the lady’s room. When I look like a woman it would create a scene to do otherwise. Not to mention the higher potential for a confrontation.
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- Registered On: February 14, 2023Topics: 11Replies: 76Has thanked: 5 timesBeen thanked: 386 times
When out as Clara I try to use the ladies restrooms if deserted, when on my road trips I do have a couple that I use with confidence as they are a bit out of the way and with today’s society where everybody is in a hurry it is rare to encounter somebody at these locations as they prefer to go to ones on the main road etc But if a lot of genetic females about I will either wait to it quietens or hold it (not very lady like I know) and go elsewhere. Yes I have been in the stall when other women have come in, but I have waited till they leave for me to leave to avoid confrontation. But this is a argument that will never ever be resolved, the law in Australia says we can use the bathroom of the gender we present, so when out as Clara I always am wearing a skirt or dress with Hose, Heels and breast forms. Although I may not present facially as a female I believe the rest of me does and I see my self as a female at those times. It is strange I am not normally bothered by people’s appearance or the aura they give off, but when out as Clara I am more conscious of this and if at the bathrooms I don’t feel comfortable with someone who is about I will avoid the place.
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- Registered On: September 29, 2021Topics: 5Replies: 414Has thanked: 437 timesBeen thanked: 1655 times
“the law in Australia says we can use the bathroom of the gender we present” That is a clear, sensible, refreshing statement. I don’t know of any US statutes that read this way, but think they should. In the US, possibly as a result of lobbying from the transsexual community, who are far more visibe than crossdressers, statutes generally reference identity rather than presentation. How can anyone know how another identifies?. Essentially this boils down to saying anyone can use the restroom they prefer.That is not a choice folks answering this quiz elect,, but that is essentially what the law supports.
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- Registered On: November 21, 2022Topics: 34Replies: 275Has thanked: 120 timesBeen thanked: 1534 times
I’ve gone out a few times enfemme. I have also used the ladies room a few times. I did get a serious look from a woman once when leaving the ladies room. It’s kinda touchy.
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- Registered On: November 1, 2021Topics: 43Replies: 853Has thanked: 18184 timesBeen thanked: 5169 times
As a trans woman, having successfully lived as a woman for almost two years, and recently informed I am an intersex female, I’ve never encountered any issue using a ladies restroom, I can’t see that changing.
What are they going to do? Have staff at the entrance asking for proof? My ID has a picture of a lady named Lauren along with an ‘F’ in the box marked ‘sex’.
I will add that I speak in a feminine voice, often, when I enter, if another woman is present, I’ll smile and say hello, or good morning, or something similar. That has always been met with a thank you and a smile in return. I can’t emphasize the importance of trying to learn your female voice.Hugs girls,
Ms. Lauren M
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- Registered On: November 10, 2019Topics: 12Replies: 1260Has thanked: 9 timesBeen thanked: 3615 times
Normally, which bathroom to use is not a focus for the trans community. However, conservatives have forced the issue, and in turn, we are obliged to think about it and react to it. Some years ago the city of Charlotte, North Carolina decided to create a statute that allowed trans people to use the restroom associated with their gender identification. That’s what set off the fire storm. Up to that point, in the US, there had been NO INCIDENTS of trans people doing anything untoward in restrooms. There were already laws against ANYONE doing ANYTHING untoward, so the statutes were not needed, save for a way to throw red meat to the faithful.
Further, anyone who says that we “groom” is talking BS. If you could, then conversion therapy would work. You could Undo something that was Done, but conversion therapy doesn’t work. How we are is innate.
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- Registered On: September 29, 2021Topics: 5Replies: 414Has thanked: 437 timesBeen thanked: 1655 times
Thanks for sharing those references, DeeAnn. I used to pass through Charlotte every month en route to Atlanta support group meetings and kidded people that I had to empty my bladder before traveling so as to make the SC state line before having to find a restroom. In truth, no one is checking ID at bathrooms and there was never any authority to arrest anyone for using the “wrong” bathroom.. It was all a tempest in a teapot, to create awareness of issues, but a serious one because the state lost a ton of visitors and revenue by politicizing the issue.
NC was also a holdout for allowing gay marriages, prohibited by the state constitution, which was arguably out of sync with Federal statues, the Civil Rights Bill, and more. I attended a church which would perform “holy unions” for couples after they want to another state to get legally married so as to enact a normal ceremony upon returning. One of my favorite memories was playing piano for one such couple while wearing a dress given by the bride (i.e., the one dressed as a woman; the other crossdressed as a man). I stood between them to get a great photo to use in classroom presentations, where I could ask “how many crossdressers does one find in the photo?”
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- Registered On: November 10, 2019Topics: 12Replies: 1260Has thanked: 9 timesBeen thanked: 3615 times
Yes, all the reaction to the original statute was just red meat; nothing more. It’s a case of cutting off your nose to spite your face. What conservatives don’t care about is how many are economically impacted when people choose not to travel to North Carolina, Florida, etc. due to their BS political stances. Not enough zeros in their bank statements.
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- Registered On: September 2, 2015Topics: 38Replies: 209Has thanked: 194 timesBeen thanked: 1060 times
Likewise as others i try to avoid using a restroom, or use single occupancy lady rooms. Recently this state passed a law requiring one to use the bathroom of the gender listed on the original birth certificate. Soooo, i don’t know what the correct answer is anymore. I know i am not a threat to any lady or child i would encounter in a ladies room. I also know it is risky to use mens room while en femme. Just not sure what to do.
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- Registered On: September 29, 2021Topics: 5Replies: 414Has thanked: 437 timesBeen thanked: 1655 times
Which state passed this law? It sounds more objective than laws that permit bathroom choices according to how one identifies, something that cannot be proved so of course could be faked.
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- Registered On: September 29, 2021Topics: 5Replies: 414Has thanked: 437 timesBeen thanked: 1655 times
Keep your outings short, I guess. Glad you brought up the fact that some see this issue as a simple one, resolved by using the bathroom consistent with one’s birth-assigned sex. Few understand the crifical differences between birth sex, gender identity, gender presentation, and sexual attraction. To many, the word “sex” covers it all.
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- Registered On: November 23, 2019Topics: 1Replies: 858Has thanked: 694 timesBeen thanked: 3776 times
I always use the ladies room or a gender neutral room and have never had a problem. Just go in, quickly do your business and quickly get out without lingering or speaking. Emily is right, using the men’s room is inviting all sorts of trouble.
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At the end of the day I agree at least if you present as female and are fully transitioned. Then use the women’s restroom. It’s safer for you. But that’s just some of my wisdom. Also my vote was the 1 scenario that makes sense.
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- Registered On: August 23, 2015Topics: 3Replies: 393Has thanked: 14059 timesBeen thanked: 1688 times
Lets make it simple and meaning NO disrepect,if you present as female,use the ladies room.Simple and easy,no discussions needed.Use the ladies room,but PLEASE respect any female using the room with you.
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- Registered On: November 10, 2019Topics: 12Replies: 1260Has thanked: 9 timesBeen thanked: 3615 times
Michelle:
No, that doesn’t really work. Remember that there are some who were assigned female at birth with a more masculine appearance than some men. Also, I believe the statute here in California is based on Identity and not Presentation. Further, I would not want to tell a flannel and combat boot wearing dyke that she had to use the men’s room. That would be disrespectful.
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- Registered On: September 29, 2021Topics: 5Replies: 414Has thanked: 437 timesBeen thanked: 1655 times
As common sense and poll results show, knowing how a person internally identifies is not really possible; and a genetic female can look like a male, so presentation as female, while overwhelmingly considered to provide a key of entitlement to the women’s restroom, a woman presenting as male is not EXCLUDED from a woman’s restroom. So we are left with a question which I think begs an answer: If somone presenting as male might be female, and identity is not an observable criterion, is there any observable basis to exclude ANYONE? If one cannot easily tell whether a person is male or female what is the answer and what is the concern driving the NEED for an answer?
- Registered On: November 10, 2019Topics: 12Replies: 1260Has thanked: 9 timesBeen thanked: 3615 times
I would caution against using the term “genetic female”. It becomes inaccurate when considering the general population which includes intersex people. Assigned Female At Birth (AFAB) covers more ground. Similarly, AMAB.
Interestingly, intersex people are 2x to 3x with regard to the transgender population.
- Registered On: September 29, 2021Topics: 5Replies: 414Has thanked: 437 timesBeen thanked: 1655 times
I like your effort to apply common sense to nonsense. It’s as simple as responding to the riddle “What happens when an immovable object is met by an irresistable force?”
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- Registered On: August 28, 2023Topics: 8Replies: 156Has thanked: 261 timesBeen thanked: 605 times
This is the hot trans topic in the UK at the moment and has been fuelled by some legislators trying to change the law and processes by which people can legally change their sex. This of course applies to both sexes but for the sake of simplicity I’ll confine my comments to the MTF situation. In the UK currently, if a man wants to legally become a woman, he has to apply for a Gender Reassignment Certificate (GRC) and demonstrate that he has lived as a woman for two years and received a psychiatric report attesting to his dysphoria. Once the man has a GRC, he is legally a woman and is entitled to all the legal protections that that “protected characteristic” provides which includes the right not to be discriminated against on the basis of their sex. A man does not need to have undergone any medical interventions such as hormone treatment or surgery to gain a GRC. So under current UK legislation, a woman can have a penis. Also, to make life even more complicated, being transgender is a protected characteristic so under UK anti-discrimination law it was always assumed that a transgender woman could not be excluded from a space reserved for women because legally they were women. Generally until recently CD’s in the UK benefited from all this, although not legally women, and were mostly allowed to use women’s spaces including restrooms and changing rooms as long as they presented as a women. In fact a lot of businesses had specific policies which accepted this practice. I do not know of any cases of a cis woman being attacked by a self-identifying trans woman in any woman’s space with one major exception and that is in prisons (more below).
The crap really hit the fan when some liberally minded politicians (mostly women) wanted to change the law to make the process of changing sex much easier — instead of taking two years it would be reduced to six months and would not require a psychiatric assessment. Obviously this possible law change was welcomed by transgender activists but a number of feminist activists expressed reservations. This new process generally became known as”self identification” and some crafty male criminals (including violent sex offenders) saw it as an opportunity to do their time in the much more comfortable environment of a women’s prison. So on being sentenced, they immediately announced that they now self-identified as a woman and wanted to be transferred to a woman’s prison. Inevitably some of these men than went on to commit acts of sexual aggression, including rape, against women.
Understandably, all this just got the feminist activists, many of whom were lesbians, highly agitated. At the same time, the major gender reassignment clinic in the UK, the Tavistock, came under attack for prescribing puberty blockers to minors without their parents consent and eventually the public furore caused the medical authorities to close the clinic.
The result of all this is that the situation for CD’s in the UK when it comes to using ladies restrooms is in limbo. The pragmatic stance taken by most businesses and people up until recently still seems to hold and I don’t know of any CD’s being told to leave a restroom by cis women but there may be cases. Until more unisex toilets become available I will continue to use women’s restrooms when if there is no unisex alternative. I tend to use coffee shop restrooms which at least in the UK are separate cubicles with a wc and sink. I can understand both sexes being a bit reluctant to use genuine unisex restrooms where men and women co-mingle so the solution seems to be individual cubicle type arrangements with their own entrances. I know women hate men using the same toilet as them but I think they may need to get used to messy toilets if they want a genuine level playing field for everyone (including CD’s) who need to use the loo when they are out.
Veronica
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- Registered On: September 29, 2021Topics: 5Replies: 414Has thanked: 437 timesBeen thanked: 1655 times
Yes, one would think it easy. I am frequently asked wat pronouns one should use when addressing another. That seems obvious to me also… Address someone in the manner suggested by the way they dress and present, unless told differently.
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When presenting as a female, I use the ladies room. The controversy surrounding this is ridiculous and is generated by those who wish to minimize us because of our gender expression. The fact that it is so politicized in the face of all the other issues we as a society are faced with is absolutely disgusting.
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- Registered On: September 29, 2021Topics: 5Replies: 414Has thanked: 437 timesBeen thanked: 1655 times
Well put. Or, as Mark Twain replied to his publisher after an article was rejected for ending too many sentences with prepositions, “This is something up with which I cannot put.”
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- Registered On: October 12, 2022Topics: 10Replies: 276Has thanked: 941 timesBeen thanked: 1077 times
I have not voted on this issue as I find it very difficult to decide. I completely understand the stance that some/many biological women take – it is a safe place for them to do what needs to be done (which is of course more than just going to the toilet). And although most crossdressers and transgender people would not hurt or show any disrespect to genetic ladies, there will almost inevitably be some who will exploit the situation for their own selfish, nasty, unscrupulous, immoral, criminal(?) ends. And that needs to be avoided at all costs.
Of course if I was presenting as a woman, I would prefer to use the ladies facilities. But it is not, and indeed should not be, my choice!
So I think when presenting as a women we should seek out those places that have explicitly unisex facilities and where genetic women select this as acceptable to them. But having said that, I would never advocate that we insist that unisex facilities to be provided everywhere.
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- Registered On: August 24, 2019Topics: 125Replies: 1787Has thanked: 2328 timesBeen thanked: 9466 times
I don’t need to overthink this. If I’m presenting as female, I’m using the women’s restroom. That’s never been a problem. Even if something were to happen, it’s highly unlikely to be a threat to my safety. Using the men’s restroom could easily result in a trip to the hospital, or worse. I see personal safety as the primary driver in public restroom use. From that perspective, the women’s room wins every time.
/EA
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- Registered On: January 18, 2020Topics: 11Replies: 258Has thanked: 459 timesBeen thanked: 779 times
When I go out en femme, I try to go places that have gender neutral bathrooms, so it is not an issue. However a few months ago, I had an unusual bathroom experience as I went to a place that had a gender neutral bathroom that could take multiple people and I found that awkward to be in a bathroom with women as a male(was with my wife at a summer theater show). As for all the other gender neutral bathrooms I have been in, have only been for 1 person. I have gone out a few times presenting as female and have had to use ladies room on one of those outings and did that as quickly and low key as I could.
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- Registered On: November 18, 2022Topics: 3Replies: 51Has thanked: 68 timesBeen thanked: 205 times
If I may say so I do not really agree with the premise of your poll. I think it is about situation, circumstances and risk. There is a risk either way to a MtF presenting person, risk of attack in a male space, risk of being called out and harassed in a female space. One should really act in accordance with the balance of risk.
I know we shouldn’t have to but the media have done a good job of presenting AMAB females as threats to women in women’s spaces and I don’t think we have a universal right to put our needs above those of AFAB people. We need to win the argument first.
To repeat, we should not have to do this, we should not be at risk.
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- The topic ‘What bathroom should a MTF Crossdresser use and why?’ is closed to new replies.
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