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  • #588186
    Elizabeth(Liz)
    Participant
    Registered On: October 7, 2021
    Topics: 33
    Replies: 397
    Has thanked: 2694 times
    Been thanked: 1784 times

    I ask this question in all seriousness. There’s an article apparently in the papers where a 6foot bearded man walked into stores in London claimed that he was a woman and ordered a bra and few other things and asked to try them on.

    I honestly don’t know what to make of this. Is he being serious, or is he acting the wag? I personally would say I’m a male and would like to try on women’s clothing. I can understand some women would find this deeply offensive.
    I understand shops have a duty of care, but it’s to all not just people who one community.
    I wish I could post the article on line to let you see it, but you can find it on the online site of the Daily Mail.

Viewing 12 reply threads
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    • #589696
      Stevie Steiner
      Managing Ambassador
      Registered On: June 11, 2020
      Topics: 77
      Replies: 1826
      Has thanked: 8178 times
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      Elizabeth, I’m so happy I am at that point where I would not hesitate to refer to myself as a trans woman if the issue came up.  Honestly there is a part of me who wants them to ask!  I can finally take pride in who I am, so I will!

      Stevie

      2 users thanked author for this post.
    • #589606
      Cerys Burton
      Lady
      Registered On: February 2, 2021
      Topics: 64
      Replies: 208
      Has thanked: 209 times
      Been thanked: 1628 times

      My counsellor is a trans woman and 6 feet tall. She has a full beard.
      As for changing rooms, in ladies only clothes shops I have never had a problem trying stuff on. Once I was asked to wait for the changing rooms to be free of women before I was allowed in. I had no problem with this. I always present as male when shopping.
      In a store that sells both male and female clothing, I always go to the mens’ changing rooms.

      Cerys.

      2 users thanked author for this post.
      • #590467
        Alison Anderson
        Duchess
        Registered On: October 15, 2018
        Topics: 12
        Replies: 781
        Has thanked: 623 times
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        If you are self-conscious about bringing women’s clothing into a men’s changing room, here is a trick I figured out.  Grab something men’s before going in.  Pants work well so there is no question of bare legs if someone sees if you are trying on a dress or a skirt.  Then once in the changing room, you don’t have to try on the men’s item.  No one is the wiser.

        If there isn’t any employee working the access to the changing rooms, I try to make it easy by grabbing something close to the changing room so I can put it back where I found it rather than leave it in the return pile.  I also try to remember where the women’s item came from so I don’t leave a women’s item in the men’s changing room if it doesn’t fit.

        1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #589448
      Laura Lovett
      Lady
      Registered On: March 26, 2020
      Topics: 39
      Replies: 1553
      Has thanked: 5095 times
      Been thanked: 7675 times

      To be honest, there’s not much I’d believe in the Daily Mail.

      Maybe the football scores… Smiley face

      I certainly wouldn’t claim to be a woman in full femme. Heart.

      Love

      Laura

      4 users thanked author for this post.
    • #589438
      Bobbi
      Registered On: September 13, 2018
      Topics: 36
      Replies: 1759
      Has thanked: 2298 times
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      I don’t own any male clothing, but no matter what I was wearing, there’s no way I could hide these “headlights”! I’m a woman, no matter what I’m wearing. (& it definitely shows!)

      5 users thanked author for this post.
      • #589460
        Anonymous
        Topics: 0
        Replies: 0
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        haha bobbi have them to need to wear some sun glasses they will blind you.

        Donna

        3 users thanked author for this post.
    • #588737
      Diane Rakers
      Lady
      Registered On: August 18, 2019
      Topics: 4
      Replies: 955
      Has thanked: 1670 times
      Been thanked: 3374 times

      I have walked into The Bra Spa here in Tucson and said I was transgender. I was warmly greeted and had the most loving of attention.

      Diane

    • #588386
      Elizabeth(Liz)
      Lady
      Registered On: October 7, 2021
      Topics: 33
      Replies: 397
      Has thanked: 2694 times
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      Elizabeth is referring to an article where a female went into the female changing cubicles of a well known U.K. store. When inside she heard the voices of two men. She peeked out and saw two obvious males in the area trying on clothes. I do not know if the defined male/female clothes. She was in her underwear and felt uncomfortable. 

      She asked the assistant what was going on and, it is said, the males said they identified as female so let them in. The article raised the issue about self identification of Trans and this and other shops policies. This particular publication has been on the case of self identification and supports womens only spaces. It has cited trans prisoners being sent to female prisons and assaulting inmates and the bigger picture with sensationalist headlines saying that the ‘female changing rooms will be full of self identifying trans males’ thus inferring, full of perverts. The publication then sent a male reporter out to test the waters and found that the majority of shops did indeed allow self identifying males. no matter if they looked female or not, into the store changing rooms apart from those with communal style ones. The angle was that the shops didn’t want to offend the Trans lobbyists. 

      The womens groups and individuals have expressed various views and a few have been treated very badly by the Trans lobby and have had to resign or be ‘cancelled’. These women have expressed an opinion but say they have respect for trans and, effectively, their rights. 

      The paper also says it respects the rights of trans. However the diatribe is only going to harm the true trans person as it would seem they want some form of legislation to stop Trans from using the female spaces. I can understand the argument as it stands but the sensationalist nature will make the lives of true trans difficult. We have been using changing rooms and rest rooms for years and. I suspect, that it is very rare to be called out. If it was as bad as said the courts would be full of voyeurs and perverts, which doesn’t appear to be the case. The paper is making a situation appear real that isn’t actually there. 

      If we end up with legislation to stop us using facilities and have ‘Trans’ only areas that will out us and consequentially make us targets of hate. This whole topic has the potential to cause harm to us. Beware.

      As a postscript, and food for thought, I have entered a store where it sells male and female clothes. It has changing rooms but they aren’t defined. I worked in a ladies fashion shop and that too had changing cubicles. They weren’t defined either, just assumed. We didn’t have any males asking but if they did? Most changing areas have cubicles and doors. Some have curtains. If the latter then an element of dignity and privacy needs to be applied which I believe is the real issue here and hijacked by womens groups and trans lobbyists alike. It was never an issue until it was made one.

      Thanks Angela for clarifying that position for me. What is the name of the store?

      Liz

      6 users thanked author for this post.
      • #588390
        Angela Booth
        Lady
        Registered On: August 1, 2020
        Topics: 9
        Replies: 1007
        Has thanked: 3745 times
        Been thanked: 4686 times

        Not sure, but they tried a few.

        3 users thanked author for this post.
    • #588384
      Angela Booth
      Lady
      Registered On: August 1, 2020
      Topics: 9
      Replies: 1007
      Has thanked: 3745 times
      Been thanked: 4686 times

      Elizabeth is referring to an article where a female went into the female changing cubicles of a well known U.K. store. When inside she heard the voices of two men. She peeked out and saw two obvious males in the area trying on clothes. I do not know if the defined male/female clothes. She was in her underwear and felt uncomfortable. 

      She asked the assistant what was going on and, it is said, the males said they identified as female so let them in. The article raised the issue about self identification of Trans and this and other shops policies. This particular publication has been on the case of self identification and supports womens only spaces. It has cited trans prisoners being sent to female prisons and assaulting inmates and the bigger picture with sensationalist headlines saying that the ‘female changing rooms will be full of self identifying trans males’ thus inferring, full of perverts. The publication then sent a male reporter out to test the waters and found that the majority of shops did indeed allow self identifying males. no matter if they looked female or not, into the store changing rooms apart from those with communal style ones. The angle was that the shops didn’t want to offend the Trans lobbyists. 

      The womens groups and individuals have expressed various views and a few have been treated very badly by the Trans lobby and have had to resign or be ‘cancelled’. These women have expressed an opinion but say they have respect for trans and, effectively, their rights. 

      The paper also says it respects the rights of trans. However the diatribe is only going to harm the true trans person as it would seem they want some form of legislation to stop Trans from using the female spaces. I can understand the argument as it stands but the sensationalist nature will make the lives of true trans difficult. We have been using changing rooms and rest rooms for years and. I suspect, that it is very rare to be called out. If it was as bad as said the courts would be full of voyeurs and perverts, which doesn’t appear to be the case. The paper is making a situation appear real that isn’t actually there. 

      If we end up with legislation to stop us using facilities and have ‘Trans’ only areas that will out us and consequentially make us targets of hate. This whole topic has the potential to cause harm to us. Beware.

      As a postscript, and food for thought, I have entered a store where it sells male and female clothes. It has changing rooms but they aren’t defined. I worked in a ladies fashion shop and that too had changing cubicles. They weren’t defined either, just assumed. We didn’t have any males asking but if they did? Most changing areas have cubicles and doors. Some have curtains. If the latter then an element of dignity and privacy needs to be applied which I believe is the real issue here and hijacked by womens groups and trans lobbyists alike. It was never an issue until it was made one.

      • #589449
        Laura Lovett
        Lady
        Registered On: March 26, 2020
        Topics: 39
        Replies: 1553
        Has thanked: 5095 times
        Been thanked: 7675 times

        This is a lot like saying that some people have been killed by careless drivers, so cars should be taken off the road.

        It’s a classic “over here” argument – a distraction from reality. The reality is that bad people exist and do bad things.

        “Dignity and privacy” are first world, body confidence issues – so ban fashion models and support Naturism.

        Any political views here are purely accidental. The truth is a tricky pill sometimes.

        😘😘😘😘😘

         

        1 user thanked author for this post.
      • #588734
        Birel Galanodel
        Lady
        Registered On: May 3, 2020
        Topics: 24
        Replies: 338
        Has thanked: 932 times
        Been thanked: 1656 times

        So, they didn’t assault anyone in the changing rooms or actually do anything wrong? Their presence just made her feel uncomfortable?

        The article I saw when I searched for this says that the woman was changing her top in a common area of the womens changing area, because she didn’t want to wait for an actual changing room/stall. Did anyone tell her not to change in a common area, because she might make other people uncomfortable? If everyone used the changing rooms to change their clothes like they should have been, it appears this would have been a non-issue. Unless it’s really just being turned into an issue for transphobic reasons…

        I’ve posted about this before, but a few years ago I went to a large LGBTQ youth conference. And at this event, they covered all the bathroom signs in the convention center. The main, big bathrooms were all designated non-gender specific. This really freaked me out initially. But, throughout the conference, everyone just used whatever bathroom. You just went into a stall and did your business, and left. Sure, different genders may be at the sink washing their hands beside each other. But, the whole bathroom thing turned out to be no big deal. And from this conference with over 2,000 attendees, I never heard of any problems or complaints about the bathroom situation.

        So, I look at changing rooms the same way. Use your own stall, respect others’ privacy in their own stalls, and there wouldn’t be any problem.

        3 users thanked author for this post.
        • #589599
          Laura Lovett
          Lady
          Registered On: March 26, 2020
          Topics: 39
          Replies: 1553
          Has thanked: 5095 times
          Been thanked: 7675 times

          They’ve implemented this solution at my daughter’s school.

          My wife is horrified, I am delighted.

          The “safe spaces for women” mantra is not doing it for me – I was once attacked in a men’s facility for no reason other than the person was a drunk psycho who wanted a fight.

          Where are the safe spaces for men from people like that?

          2 users thanked author for this post.
      • #588422
        Samantha Peders
        Lady
        Registered On: May 12, 2020
        Topics: 5
        Replies: 50
        Has thanked: 97 times
        Been thanked: 180 times

        As for the sales staff I usually beat them to the punch once I find something I like and ask them if I could start a room. Only once have I been refused. It was at Dillard’s a place where I have literally bought hundreds of dresses and suits . It was and Asian woman who just started at the store. I called up the manager and inquired if it was their policy to discriminate against trans people. He was horrified, apologized profusely and asked me to come back. I returned and bought $200 worth of dresses . Never had a problem since.

        6 users thanked author for this post.
        • #589600
          Laura Lovett
          Lady
          Registered On: March 26, 2020
          Topics: 39
          Replies: 1553
          Has thanked: 5095 times
          Been thanked: 7675 times

          In most shops where I have tried on dresses, the SA’s simply ask if I would like to try them on and direct me to the appropriate changing room for women’s clothing.

          Love Laura

          2 users thanked author for this post.
      • #588388
        Samantha Peders
        Lady
        Registered On: May 12, 2020
        Topics: 5
        Replies: 50
        Has thanked: 97 times
        Been thanked: 180 times

        Here in the United States they’ve actually gone and made laws against men using women’s rooms in many of the more right-wing areas. These are simply solutions in search of a problem. I have pressed proponents of these laws to give one example of a trans person attacking a woman in a restroom. So far crickets.

    • #588372
      Anonymous
      Topics: 0
      Replies: 0
      Has thanked: 0 times
      Been thanked: 0 times

      I don’t think I’ve ever came right out and said I’m a woman but when asked if it’s for my wife I say know it’s for me. If the person pursues further I’ll tell them I’m a trans-woman but I don’t flaunt it, no need to draw unnecessary attention.

      • #589692
        Stevie Steiner
        Managing Ambassador
        Registered On: June 11, 2020
        Topics: 77
        Replies: 1826
        Has thanked: 8178 times
        Been thanked: 9389 times

        Heather, that answer pretty well mirrors what I would say.   Don’t flaunt it, but own it if asked!

        Stevie

        1 user thanked author for this post.
    • #588361
      Alison Anderson
      Duchess
      Registered On: October 15, 2018
      Topics: 12
      Replies: 781
      Has thanked: 623 times
      Been thanked: 3347 times

      I wouldn’t, because it is a lie.  I have never claimed to be a woman.  I’m a crossdresser, a male who likes to wear women’s clothing.  I also enjoy presenting as a woman, or as a way of expressing my feminine side.

      5 users thanked author for this post.
    • #588293
      Anonymous
      Topics: 0
      Replies: 0
      Has thanked: 0 times
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      No way I am a woman and don’t fool with male clothes

    • #588275
      Jennifer Lynn
      Lady
      Registered On: August 15, 2020
      Topics: 1
      Replies: 274
      Has thanked: 122 times
      Been thanked: 1520 times

      No way I could. I don’t own a single item of male clothing. My wardrobe is 100% women’s clothes and has been since January 1995.

      6 users thanked author for this post.
    • #588264
      Dawn Judson
      Ambassador
      Registered On: November 26, 2017
      Topics: 11
      Replies: 137
      Has thanked: 355 times
      Been thanked: 668 times

      Never! When I go out in public, I present 100% in the gender I’ve chosen. If I’m presenting as a woman, I am all woman in the way I walk, talk or, otherwise, conduct myself. And I am treated as such. Likewise, when I go out as a man, no one ever confuses me with being a woman.

    • #588259
      Birel Galanodel
      Lady
      Registered On: May 3, 2020
      Topics: 24
      Replies: 338
      Has thanked: 932 times
      Been thanked: 1656 times

      My initial reaction was, no. But, I have gone in to stores in male clothing and tried on women’s clothes. So, really, what’s the difference. Without more information, I’m going to assume that this individual must be trans. If that is the case, then I respect and support their identity, even if they don’t look like a woman. If they are not trans, then, well, I need more information here…

      Trans people do not have to “pass” or look like a different gender for their identity to be valid. It’s ok for someone who is trans-feminine to have facial hair, just like it’s ok for someone who is trans-masculine to still like to wear skirts. I think it’s ok for us to break society’s gender “rules”.

      I feel like there must be more to the story than just someone with a beard wanting to try on a bra? Why was this something news worthy, that newspapers would publish a story about it?

      Birel

      4 users thanked author for this post.
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